Avail 3 vs Scattante R-330

[Owlie]

I was all set on buying an Avail 3. Then The Boyfriend, poking around on Performance, came across this.

So far, comparing the two:

Avail:
Pro: 1) Have ridden one and liked it.
2)WSD (possibly a plus) (boyfriend keeps saying it's not significant...)
3) It is rather prettier...
Con: more expensive ($750 is the lowest I've found)

R-330:
Pro: 1) Price
2) Better components (apparently. I don't know these things)
3) The boyfriend and his dad (both bike nuts) recommended this one
Con:
1) I have no actual idea what frame size I should be getting, and availability of certain frame sizes is limited
2)I'm not thrilled about the black.

Other than aesthetic reasons, I have misgivings about the R-330, and I don't know why, because I should be getting "more bike for the money."
Could someone qualitatively explain what the differences between (at least, Giant's versions) women's frame and the "men's", and what can't be solved by tweaking things and swapping out parts?
I'm pretty sure this has been asked before, but how does one go about (roughly) determining frame size?
Are there other things I'm not considering?

[uforgot]

I can't find a geometry chart on the Performance bike. I was going to look at how they compare. (The Giant geometry is on their website) It doesn't matter how great the components are, if it doesn't fit, you won't want to ride it. The one thing that you don't want to tweak if you don't have to is fit.

A few other things to consider: I assume you are getting the Giant from a dealer? Are they throwing in tuneups or anything like that? You may want to consider that in the overall cost. Personally, I wouldn't buy a bike I hadn't ridden, unless I was sure it would fit. It also appears that both bikes have Sora components, and although I haven't ridden them personally, there are a lot of people on here who don't like them. Perhaps they will chime in with a component comparison for you. We've also heard a few horror stories on here about Performance's customer service with the bikes. You may want to check that out.

If you don't like the bike, don't get it. Look around some more, ride some more bikes and find one you love. If you love the Giant and can swing it, go for it. I've settled for less when I thought it would be better to save a few bucks, and in the long run it's better to save, get what you want, and love your bike. YOU are the one that has to ride it.

[Owlie]

Exactly. I don't want to buy a bike that I can't try out until I've paid for it. That's silly. I'd be buying the Avail from the LBS, and as far as I know, they give a 10% discount for a year after buying the bike on things in the store, as well as a year of free tuneups. (At least, they were when my friend bought her bike from them.) As much as the boyfriend says "I can do that for you!", why make him do things if they'll do it for free?

[Running Mommy]

Being a Giant dealer I may be biased... BUT. Consider this...

Most small bike shops will offer a 30 day tune up, and a lot of them- like us for example- offer free adjustments for the life of the bike.
ALSO any good lbs is going to do a proper fit on you. Make sure the stem and bar sizes are correct, and if necessary change out at minimal to no charge.
AND set up your pedals and shoes if you are using a clipless system.

The experience I have had with our local performance shop is that they are nowhere near that personal. AND an employee told me that they really don't like working on bikes, so they charge astronomical fee's for service hoping you will go elsewhere. I've also yet to be in a performance store and see them doing a bike fit. They MAY do it at your store, but I've never seen it at the local performance.

So even if you don't go with a Giant, I would make sure that you are really getting your moneys worth. As my mom used to say "no sense being penny wise, and pound foolish".
Proper fit is essential with a road bike. Don't skimp on that!!

[Cataboo]

do you have a performance near you so you can se test out the scattante?

I had a scattante frame for a while, it had good components, and I just waited till I found a frame I liked better... and swapped all the pieces ontto that.

[Owlie]

So even if you don't go with a Giant, I would make sure that you are really getting your moneys worth. As my mom used to say "no sense being penny wise, and pound foolish".
Proper fit is essential with a road bike. Don't skimp on that!!

This. Just because of the nature of Performance stores--you go there to buy things that you can buy online if you don't want to pay for shipping--makes me think that fit and making sure it's right for the buyer is of secondary importance.

You know, I'm going to ask my boyfriend if he's ever bought a bike from them. I'm pretty sure he hasn't. (And Running Mommy, if Goodyear is where I think it is, odds are good that he'd be dealing with the same Performance store you are.) He's rather set on that bike, but I've got my doubts, and I think you hit the nail on the head. I'd much rather buy a bike from somewhere that will actually make sure it's right than somewhere that only might. I'm also asking "Okay, why is this thing so cheap?"

ETA: Catriona--Yes. I will consider and test both bikes. Since this is quite a bit of money and I probably won't be upgrading for a while (living on grad student funds...), I'll be making pretty sure that I like the bike.

[Running Mommy]

our local one is in Peoria AZ. Nice enough guys, But yeah it reminds me of the wal mart of bike shops. Or maybe target??

[Eden]

I did buy a bike from Performance once. It was mainly because they are the only Fuji dealer around and I was looking specifically for one - they were among the first to offer 44cm bikes with 700c wheels and had the shortest top tube available at the time.

I was very happy with the bike and it was a good value. The customer service was very good. They special ordered my size with no obligations and got it quite quickly. The build was so-so. Performance doesn't necessarily attract the most competent mechanics. Everything functioned, but they did odd things like put the hoods way up high rather than flat, then looks askew at me when I wanted them moved..... Performance doesn't generally do fits - at least not around here, but then neither did the LBS where I got my much pricier race bike... to tell the truth that was OK with me, as I don't think they really know the first thing about it. They tried to talk me into a bigger bike - trust me I know I need a 44....

Beware - though they have a reputation for being cheap, Performance is not necessarily less expensive, so don't assume that you are getting a good deal just because you order it from them. I just got a pair of Speedplay pedals at one of our LBS's that were $20 less than online from Performance.

[ilima]

I wouldn't worry about the components. Both bikes use intro-level (Sora) components, but the Scattante does have the newest version. The difference isn't big enough to bother with. Now, if the Scattante had 10-spd 105, well that'd be a different story.

While I like black bikes, the Giant is a better looking bike.

Others are right about considering the entire cost of owning the bike. A brand new bike will have its derailleur cables stretch, for example. Totally normal. I was in my LBS quite a few times after I bought a new road bike. As long as it wasn't too busy, they'd adjust things for me right then and there. Of course, no charge. I don't think you'd get that kind of service if you brought in a bike from Performance. And it doesn't sound like the mechanics at many Performance shops are that great (although I'm sure there are exceptions).

[Cataboo]

Not to start anything here - but, you guys are sort of giving performance a bad rap, and painting a rosy picture of local bike shops. Not that there aren't very rosy local bike shops out there, but they're not all like that. And I'm sure somewhere there's a rosy performance bike shop out there. There's plenty of stories of people who've bought bikes at local bike shops that didn't fit or had something wrong, and the bike shop wasn't willing to work with them or fix it. Look at how many threads on here about being ignored or whatever at local bike shops because you're female or overweight.

I bought my first real bike at a local bike shop, and it didn't fit. I was steered towards the bike, and yeah, maybe I should have known better - but I didn't at the time, and I was assured that this was the bike that fit me. Maintenance - they threw in one tune up after a month for cable stretch and after that you could buy their maintenance contract.... One of the guys here at work recently bought a pretty expensive mountain bike (full suspension, higher end components ) from a local bike shop, and they refused to give any fit advice or suggestions if he didn't pay the extra $200 or whatever for a pro bike fit... He could test ride the bikes and decide on his own. The bike he bought has ended up being too big for him. Read craigslist and see how many bikes that are being sold that start off with "I bought this bike at my local bike shop, but it doesn't fit & they won't allow me to exchange"

Performance does offer lifetime free adjustments on their bikes and does give a 100% satisfaction guarantee so that you can return your bike to them and get your money back at any time.

So if you have a great local bike shop and are completely certain of the fit of the avail, local bike shop prices are probably worth it... Scattantes aren't bad frames or bikes either especially when you're talking about the sora componentry level.

[Cataboo]

Other than aesthetic reasons, I have misgivings about the R-330, and I don't know why, because I should be getting "more bike for the money."
Could someone qualitatively explain what the differences between (at least, Giant's versions) women's frame and the "men's", and what can't be solved by tweaking things and swapping out parts?
I'm pretty sure this has been asked before, but how does one go about (roughly) determining frame size?
Are there other things I'm not considering?

One thing for you to consider is that Women's frames are built basically for women that have relatively long legs and relatively short torsos. If this is your body type, than you should be interested in a women's frame.... If it's not your body type, then you don't want a women's frame. I should basically never be riding a women's frame.

Women's frames will have shorter top tubes & shorter reaches because of this - men's frames will have longer top tubes. You can lengthen or shorten the reach on a bike by switching the stem for a different size. Handlebars come in different widths and reaches, that may also be something you would need to change to fit you.

I haven't looked up the giant avail, but Running Mommy is a dealer so she might be able to chime in with specifics. I don't know whether they use narrower or shallower reach handlebars for women.

A local bike shop may be willing to trade the stem, handlebars and such on the avail to fit you for free when selling you the bike - I have no idea whether or not performance does anything like that when selling a bike.

But in general, when you get the bike you're probably definitely going to eventually change the saddle for one that fits you.

As for what fits you with frame size - it really sort of depends on how you want to be riding (upright vs. more aero), and this is where hopefully your boyfriend's knowledgeable enough to help you - and the sales people at the local bike shop or at performance...

[Owlie]

At this point, more upright=better. I talked to the BF last night, and he did buy his current bike there (a Cannondale Somethingunbelievablyexpensive, when they still carried Cannondale), and he was quite happy with everything. I also managed to get into a conversation about bikes with my former chem prof (he had his bike in his office). He said he was quite happy with the customer service he got at the Performance store in town and with the bike he got. (Of course, he acknowledged that it might have been because the salesman was a student of his!) It sounds like customer service varies widely between stores.

[Running Mommy]

Not to start anything here - but, you guys are sort of giving performance a bad rap, and painting a rosy picture of local bike shops. Not that there aren't very rosy local bike shops out there, but they're not all like that. And I'm sure somewhere there's a rosy performance bike shop out there. There's plenty of stories of people who've bought bikes at local bike shops that didn't fit or had something wrong, and the bike shop wasn't willing to work with them or fix it. Look at how many threads on here about being ignored or whatever at local bike shops because you're female or overweight.

I bought my first real bike at a local bike shop, and it didn't fit. I was steered towards the bike, and yeah, maybe I should have known better - but I didn't at the time, and I was assured that this was the bike that fit me. Maintenance - they threw in one tune up after a month for cable stretch and after that you could buy their maintenance contract.... One of the guys here at work recently bought a pretty expensive mountain bike (full suspension, higher end components ) from a local bike shop, and they refused to give any fit advice or suggestions if he didn't pay the extra $200 or whatever for a pro bike fit... He could test ride the bikes and decide on his own. The bike he bought has ended up being too big for him. Read craigslist and see how many bikes that are being sold that start off with "I bought this bike at my local bike shop, but it doesn't fit & they won't allow me to exchange"

Performance does offer lifetime free adjustments on their bikes and does give a 100% satisfaction guarantee so that you can return your bike to them and get your money back at any time.

So if you have a great local bike shop and are completely certain of the fit of the avail, local bike shop prices are probably worth it... Scattantes aren't bad frames or bikes either especially when you're talking about the sora componentry level.

Thats why you do your research!!!
I am a female lbs owner who happens to be on the chubby side. So guess how we treat EVERYONE who walks in the door?? Like cyclists- or potential cyclists worthy of our time and respect.
I do agree that it's not always the case out here. But being a small business owner myself I always try to give the little guy my biz first. Be it hardware, or a sandwhich. It is VERY HARD for the little guy to survive and fight the price cutting the big guys are able to do. So anytime you can throw a bone to a small shop- and they EARN THE BONE- please do it.
I have a story about a guy named "Jimmy" that maybe I'll post sometime.

[TxDoc]

Other than aesthetic reasons, I have misgivings about the R-330, and I don't know why, because I should be getting "more bike for the money."
Could someone qualitatively explain what the differences between (at least, Giant's versions) women's frame and the "men's", and what can't be solved by tweaking things and swapping out parts?
I'm pretty sure this has been asked before, but how does one go about (roughly) determining frame size?
Are there other things I'm not considering?

Hi Owlie
from your post - forgive me if I am mistaken - I get the impression that you have tried a few bikes, and like the Avail among those. Which is great, hey, but... from the question you ask it looks like you really do not have a clear idea of what you are looking for, or what fits your size and riding style. So my #1 recommendation would be to go out and test-ride as many bikes as you can - before you make a decision.

No pun intended on the Performance stores - but from my experience, big franchise-style stores tend to emphasize low price over quality of the merchandise and customer service. Let me give you a few examples (and again - these comments are based more on other chains than Performace itself, but still):
To reduce the final price, some manufacturer and franchises choose to limit the quality of less evident components. For example, the brakes (lower-cost/older brake models on an otherwise dura ace or ultegra bike), or brake pads (which could be the disposable style where you have to throw out the shoe with the pad), or rims (many makers use low quality rims on entry-level bikes, cheap spokes, cheap nipples...), and on and on we go. And of course, provided that you notice this before the purchase (and most new riders do not), the answer is often that a stock bike is a stock bike and you buy it the way it is. Then, if you want better componentry, you will buy it on top of it. So yes, you save some money in the beginning - but at some point you will have to make up for it.
The small shop does not have the price advantage - and so they have to rely on the quality advantage if they want to stay in business. And therefore at the small shop you can do things that are not possible in the big franchise. For example, if you want to make some changes, the local shop may be willing to swap components, even on a stock bicycle.
The fitting is also what I see as a major problem. Large franchise shops often think of a fitting process as: saddle height, frame size, thank you and goodbye, enjoy your ride. Sometimes they will throw in a handlebar width and stem length measurement. In the last three months I have observed several people having a fit done in two major franchise sport/bike store - and each one of them took an average of 6-7 minutes. Now, I know some people are fast but my mechanic takes about 30-45 minutes for each fit - and more if there's an issue to be worked out (injuries, racing, power output, etc). Running Mommy, how long does your average fit take?
Yes Catriona you are right, not everywhere is all roses but often the smaller shop - provided that they have knowledgeable employees and mechanics - will take the necessary time to give you a more appropriate fitting. And this again is because, as it has been said, they need to earn their customers, and they want you to come back.
In the end the main difference is that often a big franchise store wants you to buy a bike and then go elsewhere for maintenance - while the small business wants you to buy a bike and come back. One has the purpose of earning a sale, the other wants to earn a customer.

So all things considered, my bottom line recommendation to you would be -
1. keep visiting bike shops until you find the right one, and if at the end Performance is the right one, then so be it - but do not settle just for the price.
2. keep riding bikes until you find the right one. And I do not speak of the color, or women-specific, etc - what really matters is how it fits your body and your riding style. And so, if you fit on a stock bike available around the corner that's great, but if you don't then you have to keep looking.
3. if you have friends that know something more about bikes, do not hesitate to bring them along. Sometimes a more experienced cyclist can notice details or ask questions that you would not think of looking at - and everything helps.

Well, sorry for the extra-long post, and good luck on your search!

[Owlie]

Thank you all for your responses.

After running around this weekend, I think I'm going to go with the Avail. I did go to Performance, and they a) didn't have any in stock, and b) didn't have anything in my price range in stock. I can get the Avail for less over at the LBS than the cheapest entry-level road bike they had at Performance. The other thing is, the gear range on the Avail is wider. The Performance bikes seemed to be geared for climbing. Great, but not what I need right now.


(I did pick up a helmet at Performance, and they were willing to give me the online price (67) rather than the store price (87), so good for them!)