Custom Bike - 650 vs. 700 wheels

[fidlfreek]

I am 5'2 and both of my road bikes are 700s. I don't think the bikes look weird at all! On the contrary, I feel like bikes w/ 650s look just SO tiny especially when you're riding in a pace line or in a pack. Also, on a 650 you're less likely to provide any wind coverage when its your turn to pull.

Plus, its very very nice to be able to swap wheels w/ my BF whenever I need to use a set of wheels w/ a tire to ride on dirt, or a super sexy carbon wheelset. You did mention this in the pros/cons but just thought I'd add it for good measure

[Susan Otcenas]

Natalie can give me the same fit/body position on the bike, regardless of the size of the wheels. That does require some small changes in the frame geometry, but the most crucial thing is that the FIT will be the same.

So my height, body size, etc. are not really germaine to the conversation I want to have in this thread.

What I'm looking for feedback on is your thoughts on the pros and cons of the wheelsize. Those of you with 650s, am I unreasonably concerned about tire/tube availability? etc. Aesthetics matter to me too.

EDIT: I just tried to post links to images of the proposed design, but there are access issues, so it won't work.

The 700c bike has 12 degree slope in the top tube of the 700c, which I'm not sure I care for. And the small frame looks scrunched between those big wheels. The 650c bike looks proportionate to me.

[Becky]

I couldn't get the PDFs to open.

Personally, I prefer the 700c wheels. But, then again, I ride a ~49cm frame. If I were smaller and needed a smaller bike, I might feel differently about it.

For me, standover height is never an issue, so I don't have that concern that might warrant smaller wheels. I guess I've been lucky- small frames with reasonably "traditional" geometry work well for me. I haven't experienced any toe overlap issues on my roadie, though my commuter/cross frame is another story. It's something that I've grown accustomed to on that bike, and hardly notice anymore.

I prefer the 700c wheels b/c they allow me and DH to swap wheels (which happens frequently in our house). I had a hard time finding 650c tires that weren't race tires when I owned a bike with those size wheels, and they were almost always an internet or special order purchase. Tubes were fairly easy to find. For me, easy access to standardized parts is important.

As for the acceleration difference, it's not something that I remember loving about the 650c bike, or hating about my current 700c ones. It just is.

*shrugs* I dunno. It seems like a personal preference thing, and my preference may very well change as I log more miles. But, for now, 700cs work for me.

[NbyNW]

Those of you with 650s, am I unreasonably concerned about tire/tube availability?

What MM_QFC said -- just have to be prepared that ride support or unfamiliar LBS's might not have what you need in a pinch. Luckily hasn't happened to me, but I think I will take the advice to port a spare tire on my next out of town ride.

Since R+E/Rodriguez has made a niche of building small bikes with 650c wheels, they ALWAYS have parts in stock for that wheel size. And they're a 10-minute ride from my house, so it's easy for me to drop in there and get what I need.

[GLC1968]

My road bike is 650's. It's a gorgeously proportinate bike, too. My previous two road bikes had 700's and they looked odd in comparsion (small frame, big wheels).

I love the 650's and have had really no problems getting tubes. In fact, my first flat on this bike happened as I pulled into a rest stop on a century. The SAG at that stop actually had a 650 tube for me, so I didn't even need to use my own.

If you want fatter tires, finding bigger tubes/tires IS harder. But for a road bike with 23mm tires - it's really never been a problem (in 2.5 years). I do not have fenders on that bike - it only gets ridden in nice weather.

Honestly, in comparison to my commuter that has one 700 and one 24", two 650's is a piece of cake. Of course, if you have wheel troubles, stopping by a fellow cyclists house to borrow a wheel could be harder. Unless, of course, it's my house.

[redrhodie]

Based on your pro and con list, I'd go with the 650s.

[coyote]

as an owner of 650's I would go for the 700. It is hard to find tires. All the cool or useful ones are never in my size. There is never a sale on them and they are never an 'overstocked' item.

[Eden]

I also have bikes with both 700's and 650's - I prefer the 700's. I don't find them aesthetically displeasing at all.....

Tubes - no problems finding 650 tubes, but then again I do live in the big city and have tons of shops to pick from. 650 long stem tubes for my deep V's are a little harder, but still not impossible. If you have to rely on chain stores you probably won't find much.

Tires - definitely less of a selection. My 650 wheel bike is my commuter and getting hold of good puncture proof winter tires was a bit difficult. They always are a special order and many models are not available at all. I had Kendas that I really liked, but they stopped making the 650 size and I went with Gatorskins, that I don't like as much, when I replaced them.

Rims - the selection actually is kind of sucky.... Yeah you can get high end tri wheels, and they are often cheaper than the same in a 700, (this came in handy for outfitting my TT bike, which is also 650) but try looking for a more heavy duty rim. Like I said my 650 bike is my commuter/winter bike. I found the selection of nice sturdy rims to be sadly lacking

As far as the cons of 700's

I don't find my 700 wheel bike to be odd looking or disproportionate
I don't find the handling of my 700 wheel bike to be twitchy or even any different from that of my 650 bike
I don't have any toe overlap.... (though I will admit to having very small feet)

[ZenSojourner]

The 700c bike has 12 degree slope in the top tube of the 700c, which I'm not sure I care for. And the small frame looks scrunched between those big wheels. The 650c bike looks proportionate to me.

I'd go with the 650c wheels

I had a bike once with 700c wheels and a sloped top tube. This meant there was less room at the headset to adjust stem height - actually in this case there was NO room to adjust the headset as it was already higher than the seat and could not be lowered. I rather doubt Sweetpea's design using 700c wheels would be anywhere near that bad, but as has been pointed out and as I think you acknowledged, there have to be trade offs in smaller bikes with 700c wheels.

Your adjustment options will be much better with the 650c frame, but since this is a custom fit I rather doubt you'll need to adjust much. Still, you never know how things might change for you. You'll have more leeway with the 650c.

Yeah, tires may be an issue. I've got a 24" front wheel so I know a little bit about that. I just carry a spare innertube for each tire and a spare 24" tire on multi-day or non-SAGged long rides. On a SAGged ride, I don't see why a SAG vehicle wouldn't be willing to carry the spare for you if you asked.

Some people may tolerate a particular trade-off (or two) better than others; I'm 5'2", but I'm so short-waisted even for my height that I cannot deal with the tradeoffs that have to be made to make a 700c bike "fit" me (actually can't be made to fit me). It's not just about height, but about the whole package and your particular body characteristics.

[sundial]

Aesthetically, I would go with the 650's.

I would stock up on tires/tubes when you get her built and that way you'll always be prepared for the inevitable. 650 is making a comeback in the mtb world and the trends are usually a trickle down effect from the road bikes so I think in the not too distant future you will see more options for your wheels.

[ilima]

I'm so jealous. I saw her profile in Bicycling last year and I've got her site bookmarked!

I'm on the edge of either 650 or 700. If I bought a tri bike I know I'd go with 650s. I have 700 wheels on my Merlin--which I absolutely love. But--I also covet the Cervelo RS, which in my size (XS) comes with 650 wheels. And an 'ideal' STA of 73 degrees. And my Merlin does, indeed, look like a little frame in between big wheels.

I say fight the tyranny of 700c wheels! If small women keep accepting bikes with 700 wheels that make compromises in geometry there never will be enough of a critical mass for manufacturers to offer more choices for smaller wheels.

Pros/Cons of 650s
As to gearing, that's a non-issue as I ride a compact on my Merlin. On a 650 bike I'd use a standard crankset. Done.

Tires choices are definitely more limited. I've been riding Schwalbe Stelvios (purchased from TE, in fact) and I like all the color choices, but more importantly I like the tires. And they are available in the 650 size, just not in all the colors.

Is it really windy where you live? 650 wheels have less surface area exposed to the wind.

You can use 700c tubes in a pinch; just fold them over. Also, any shop that sells a decent number of tri bikes will have 650 tubes in stock. Tire selection probably isn't that great; OTOH, most shops don't even carry the 700c tires I want.

Good luck deciding.

[jobob]

How exciting for you!

Just curious, are you considering a carbon fork?

The only negative wrt to 650 I could think of was con #4, the fact that you might not be easily able to borrow a 650 tube from someone on a ride, but you're more than capable of carrying a spare tube, and perhaps a patch kit, so that's not much of an issue imho.

Looking forward to hearing about how it goes!

[Fredwina]

Also, shouldn't a 650C(571) be sturdier than a 700c(622) with the same spoke count?

[MM_QFC!]

...
PS--Get what you want. You're going to be riding your custom bike for a very long time.

+1

I have 1 of each and love them: 650s on my custom steel Rodriguez
700s coming on my soon-to-be here "replacement" Seven (titanium)...yes, there's a toe overlap consideration on the 700 wheelset and I'll have @10 degree of slope on my top tube, but I had it on my previous Seven (destroyed by a car crash) and it was not ever an issue. I was aware that 3 things need to happen, at the same time for a toe overlap calamity to happen: very slow speeds, hard turn of the front wheel and front foot in wrong position. I had that bike for 4 yrs and it never was an issue, so I don't expect with the new one either.

I'd only suggest that you pack or carry at least a replacement tire as I had a surprise blowout while on a training ride once. Not in Seattle proper, but out in the Carnation valley to the East; I tried to boot it but it wouldn't hold. Luckily a friend's husband was providing support in his pick-up, so he took me to 5 different bike shops in every town all along our century route; no one carried 650s, so my ride ended too darn early that day. That's the only time it happened to me, but I learned my lesson f'sure and since the Rodriguez is now my commuter bike w/a rack, I have a replacement (folder) tire stowed/along on every ride now.

The other incident with 650s was on the Montana AIDS Vaccine ride in 2001 and my friends tire blew while we were sitting near our bikes at our lunch stop. The ride mechanic did not have any 650s and, since we were in the middle of the ride week, she had to get someone to driver her into Bozeman
(1.5hr drive off the route ) in order to buy a new set...whew! (She also now carries at least 1 back-up tire EVERYwhere!).
It would be great if 650s did become more commonplace, in order to avoid those exceptional situations that stop rides completely, but it's a caveat to plan for taking along anything that you might need, that's all.
Tailwinds!
Mary

[Blueberry]

I'd go with 700.

You're selling your Friday since you're getting this bike, right? That makes me think you're planning to use it for longish riding and maybe touring. With 650c wheels, you will not (from what I've heard) have wide enough tire options. With 650b wheels (not that you mentioned that option), you wouldn't have narrow enough tire options for fast-ish club rides (my opinion, I know folks disagree). It seems you would have to pick one purpose or the other.

Either way, I'm sure you'll love the bike. Natalie builds some beautiful bikes!!

CA