Custom Bike - 650 vs. 700 wheels

[Susan Otcenas]

I am working with Sweetpea Bicycles in the design stage of my first ever full custom bicycle. I'm soooooo excited. I've been through a multi-hour fit session with one of the best bicycle fitters in the country (Micheal Sylvester) as well as Natalie Ramsland, the owner of Sweetpea.

Based on my measurements, Natalie can build me a bike that fits with either 650c or 700c wheels.

There are pros and cons with each size wheel.

650 Pros
1) Bike design in more aesthetically pleasing (the small frame size looks in proportion with the smaller wheels
2) Lighter wheels and less rotational mass. Small wheels accelerate faster than large. Very nice wheel sets are available in 650 (many triathletes use 650s)
3) Fewer toe overlap issues

650 Cons
1) Fewer tire choices - both in width & color
2) Fewer fork choices - there is a carbon 650 fork, though
3) No stock 650 forks have fender clearance. Not a huge big deal, as I could use a race blade on front if necessary.
4) Spare tubes not as readily accessible - no relying on ride mates for an extra spare if you have an unlucky day.
5) Can achieve the same gearing as on a 700C bike, but need larger front chain rings to do it (ie bumping up to a 53x11 or 54x11 to get the same gear inches as a 52x12 with 700c wheels)

700 Pros
1) the world is your oyster on wheels, tires, forks, etc
2) every shop on the planet has replacement tires/tubes. Most of you r ride mates will have 700cs as well

700 cons
1) very small frame looks odd with larger wheels. Frame geometry has to change a fair bit to achieve the same position/fit
2) greater rotational mass on the larger wheels - accelerates more slowly
3) toe overlap


I'm sure there are other pros/cons... What are your thoughts?

Susan

[Becky]

Interesting dilemma. Can you please put this in perspective for me- how tall are you, and what sort of frame dimensions are you considering? Having ridden both 650s and 700s, I have some thoughts, but I'd like to tailor them to the situation.

Thanks!

[Biciclista]

well, let's dispense with the fork problem right off since you're getting a custom bike. Get the custom fork that your builder is so proud of and you'll do fine.

I went with the 700 wheels myself when faced with the same dilemma and honestly, i wish i had the 650's when i see how nice they look.
i have friends with 650's and have been told that they don't feel like they are working any harder than they did before.

however, my husband who has 700's was kind of strong in wishing that we had the same kinds of tires (which also eliminated the terry with it's odd front wheel)

Next time i'm getting a 650

[Crankin]

I've had both and honestly, for me, there has been no difference. I just bought a bunch of tubes and kept 3 in my bag at all times. I do think though, that you are right in the aesthetic thing. The bigger wheels look slightly off on a small frame.
I would go back to 650's if that was what the bike I wanted had.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Yes, how tall are you?- in other words, just how small is this bike?

I'd also be interested in knowing whether it will be lugged or tig-welded- lugs can limit the range of fine tuning possibilities of the geometry/angles in the frame, so this would have a bearing on wheel size.

[DebW]

Will your frame be steel or ti or something else? Custom steel forks are nice and can provide fender clearance if that is an option from your builder.

I had a custom road/commute/touring bike built two year ago in steel. I'm 5'7" with a 32 inch inseam and went with 650. Actually, I let the builder pick the optimum wheel size (though he was on the fence until I told him my shoe size). I'd rather have perfect frame geometry than a compromise to fit a pre-determined wheel size. And the feel and handling of this bike makes it worth it. At the builder's suggestion, I have two wheelsets, 650c and 26". I run 650x23 tires on one wheelset and 26x1.3" (sometimes 26x1.5") tires on the other. That's one way to get a wide choice of tires. The brake pads have to be moved by 3-4 mm when I switch wheels. As it turns out, I love the feel and versatility of the 26x1.3" tires so much that I ride them most of the time. I run full fenders most of the time also.

[Becky]

DebW, what concessions would your builder have had to make with the frame geometry if 700c wheels had been used?

[fidlfreek]

I am 5'2 and both of my road bikes are 700s. I don't think the bikes look weird at all! On the contrary, I feel like bikes w/ 650s look just SO tiny especially when you're riding in a pace line or in a pack. Also, on a 650 you're less likely to provide any wind coverage when its your turn to pull.

Plus, its very very nice to be able to swap wheels w/ my BF whenever I need to use a set of wheels w/ a tire to ride on dirt, or a super sexy carbon wheelset. You did mention this in the pros/cons but just thought I'd add it for good measure

[Susan Otcenas]

Natalie can give me the same fit/body position on the bike, regardless of the size of the wheels. That does require some small changes in the frame geometry, but the most crucial thing is that the FIT will be the same.

So my height, body size, etc. are not really germaine to the conversation I want to have in this thread.

What I'm looking for feedback on is your thoughts on the pros and cons of the wheelsize. Those of you with 650s, am I unreasonably concerned about tire/tube availability? etc. Aesthetics matter to me too.

EDIT: I just tried to post links to images of the proposed design, but there are access issues, so it won't work.

The 700c bike has 12 degree slope in the top tube of the 700c, which I'm not sure I care for. And the small frame looks scrunched between those big wheels. The 650c bike looks proportionate to me.

[ilima]

I'm so jealous. I saw her profile in Bicycling last year and I've got her site bookmarked!

I'm on the edge of either 650 or 700. If I bought a tri bike I know I'd go with 650s. I have 700 wheels on my Merlin--which I absolutely love. But--I also covet the Cervelo RS, which in my size (XS) comes with 650 wheels. And an 'ideal' STA of 73 degrees. And my Merlin does, indeed, look like a little frame in between big wheels.

I say fight the tyranny of 700c wheels! If small women keep accepting bikes with 700 wheels that make compromises in geometry there never will be enough of a critical mass for manufacturers to offer more choices for smaller wheels.

Pros/Cons of 650s
As to gearing, that's a non-issue as I ride a compact on my Merlin. On a 650 bike I'd use a standard crankset. Done.

Tires choices are definitely more limited. I've been riding Schwalbe Stelvios (purchased from TE, in fact) and I like all the color choices, but more importantly I like the tires. And they are available in the 650 size, just not in all the colors.

Is it really windy where you live? 650 wheels have less surface area exposed to the wind.

You can use 700c tubes in a pinch; just fold them over. Also, any shop that sells a decent number of tri bikes will have 650 tubes in stock. Tire selection probably isn't that great; OTOH, most shops don't even carry the 700c tires I want.

Good luck deciding.

[Becky]

I couldn't get the PDFs to open.

Personally, I prefer the 700c wheels. But, then again, I ride a ~49cm frame. If I were smaller and needed a smaller bike, I might feel differently about it.

For me, standover height is never an issue, so I don't have that concern that might warrant smaller wheels. I guess I've been lucky- small frames with reasonably "traditional" geometry work well for me. I haven't experienced any toe overlap issues on my roadie, though my commuter/cross frame is another story. It's something that I've grown accustomed to on that bike, and hardly notice anymore.

I prefer the 700c wheels b/c they allow me and DH to swap wheels (which happens frequently in our house). I had a hard time finding 650c tires that weren't race tires when I owned a bike with those size wheels, and they were almost always an internet or special order purchase. Tubes were fairly easy to find. For me, easy access to standardized parts is important.

As for the acceleration difference, it's not something that I remember loving about the 650c bike, or hating about my current 700c ones. It just is.

*shrugs* I dunno. It seems like a personal preference thing, and my preference may very well change as I log more miles. But, for now, 700cs work for me.

[jobob]

How exciting for you!

Just curious, are you considering a carbon fork?

The only negative wrt to 650 I could think of was con #4, the fact that you might not be easily able to borrow a 650 tube from someone on a ride, but you're more than capable of carrying a spare tube, and perhaps a patch kit, so that's not much of an issue imho.

Looking forward to hearing about how it goes!

[Fredwina]

Also, shouldn't a 650C(571) be sturdier than a 700c(622) with the same spoke count?

[MM_QFC!]

...
PS--Get what you want. You're going to be riding your custom bike for a very long time.

+1

I have 1 of each and love them: 650s on my custom steel Rodriguez
700s coming on my soon-to-be here "replacement" Seven (titanium)...yes, there's a toe overlap consideration on the 700 wheelset and I'll have @10 degree of slope on my top tube, but I had it on my previous Seven (destroyed by a car crash) and it was not ever an issue. I was aware that 3 things need to happen, at the same time for a toe overlap calamity to happen: very slow speeds, hard turn of the front wheel and front foot in wrong position. I had that bike for 4 yrs and it never was an issue, so I don't expect with the new one either.

I'd only suggest that you pack or carry at least a replacement tire as I had a surprise blowout while on a training ride once. Not in Seattle proper, but out in the Carnation valley to the East; I tried to boot it but it wouldn't hold. Luckily a friend's husband was providing support in his pick-up, so he took me to 5 different bike shops in every town all along our century route; no one carried 650s, so my ride ended too darn early that day. That's the only time it happened to me, but I learned my lesson f'sure and since the Rodriguez is now my commuter bike w/a rack, I have a replacement (folder) tire stowed/along on every ride now.

The other incident with 650s was on the Montana AIDS Vaccine ride in 2001 and my friends tire blew while we were sitting near our bikes at our lunch stop. The ride mechanic did not have any 650s and, since we were in the middle of the ride week, she had to get someone to driver her into Bozeman
(1.5hr drive off the route ) in order to buy a new set...whew! (She also now carries at least 1 back-up tire EVERYwhere!).
It would be great if 650s did become more commonplace, in order to avoid those exceptional situations that stop rides completely, but it's a caveat to plan for taking along anything that you might need, that's all.
Tailwinds!
Mary

[Blueberry]

I'd go with 700.

You're selling your Friday since you're getting this bike, right? That makes me think you're planning to use it for longish riding and maybe touring. With 650c wheels, you will not (from what I've heard) have wide enough tire options. With 650b wheels (not that you mentioned that option), you wouldn't have narrow enough tire options for fast-ish club rides (my opinion, I know folks disagree). It seems you would have to pick one purpose or the other.

Either way, I'm sure you'll love the bike. Natalie builds some beautiful bikes!!

CA