need your expert advise again

[Crankin]

Thanks for the advice; I have taken the Road 1 course. At this point it's mostly a confidence issue and fear. I think you've given Cyclechik good advice, too.
I'm one who generally avoids things that I know I'm not good at. Cycling has already pushed me far beyond a lot of my boundaries.
I guess that unless I get a cycling therapist, I have to work on this myself!

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I think we all have fear boundaries- they just extend out to differing places for different people. Our fears are natural- they are there to protect us from going into harmful situations- whether rational or not.
I'm afraid of a lot of stuff. I handle it by never pushing myself way into my fear area, but rather doing very little pushes at a time to just nudge those boundaries further out.

Cyclechick-
the only thing I am 'channeling' from your somewhat nebulous balance problem description is this possibility:
Since you do well on your mtn bike, but have balance issues on your road bike- I am thinking that perhaps they put you on a bike that was maybe one size larger than ideal, and then 'fit' you to that bike by putting a short stem on. A short stem (like 5mm perhaps) will certainly produce wobbly balance issues. I had to find that out the hard way for myself. Is it wobbly on uphills in particular?- that was my symptom, and it was a bit scary when griding up a steep hill with traffic. I had to keep jerking my handlebars left and right in small increments constantly to stay upright when going slow speeds or uphill in particular. Constantly compensating my steering, as though I was a brand new rider. But it wasn't me- it was my short stem.
I know you said that an 'expert' fit you to your bike, BUT-
Often these experts are men who never have a problem with long top tube 'issues' like many women have, so they put the woman on the same bike they themselves would feel comfy on, based on her height and inseam. They forget that her arms might be shorter, so to address her sudden reach problem, they put a shorter stem on the bike. This can work fine if the frame is the right size and the new stem not too short, like 7mm. But if they were selling you a frame that was borderline too big (perhaps they had it in stock already and didn't think it was that vital to order a smaller one, figuring they could 'fit' you to it), then they'd have to use a too-short stem to make you comfortable with your reach- resulting in wobbly/twitchy steering. Is this something that sounds possible in your case?

I'm a firm believer that you can often fit a bike to you, but you should never be fit to a bike. What I guess I really mean is that too often people get the wrong sized frame and are convinced they can make it fit by merely swapping parts.

[Triskeliongirl]

Crankin, I think you are missing the point. Balance issue often are fit issues. Just because you have been professionally fit doesn't mean you were fit by someone that really understood the issue petite women face. Just because your body can comfortably reach the handlebars doesn't mean the bike will handle well. For example, if the stem and bars and are shortened rather than the top tube to improve reach, that can make the handling twitchy. I have ridden bikes that were so stable I could barely get them to turn (super high trail) as well as bikes with trails so small they were twitchy. I am the same person, yet depending on the the geometry of the bike, I too can have trouble taking my hands off the bars.

[SouthernBelle]

Do you have a poor sense of balance generally? Or is this a bike only problem??

[sundial]

CyclChyk, your post # is 666!

[GLC1968]

Trisk makes a really good point. While everyone has different body mechanics and coordination, the bike is a HUGE factor. And not just fit, either. From what I gather, the Bianchi 928 is a race bike. Words I've seen to describe it center on responsive, tight, quick...these words can also be translated into twitchy, wobbly and difficult to ride. While I'm not saying that you should buy a new bike (hardly!), because of the bike that you have, it might take more time than usual to get confidence on it. Don't sell yourself short, it might not be you!

A bike that is designed to be 'responsive' means that the slightest movement, and you are off your line. This may make learning to look behind you while on the road exceedingly difficult and frustrating. Does it mean that you can't? No, not at all. But it may take more time working on it and working on building balance muscles than just 'riding more' would do. Skills courses, core work, balance work (lifting weights while standing on wobble boards, etc) all contribute to building all the small muscles that often get neglected and that would be critical to getting confident on this bike.

I had a similiar experience. When I first started riding, I was convinced that my balance sucked because I was so uncoordinated on the bike. Funny thing was, I had excellent balance in other areas (gymnastics, ice skating, skiing, etc). I even did well and had much more confidence on my mountain bike. It wasn't until I got a different road bike that I realized that it wasn't me, it was that my bike wasn't the right one for me. I actually switched to a much more stable bike and while having the right fit made a huge difference, having confidence in my ability to control it, made biking fun again.

[Crankin]

I do value your advice, Trisk and Lisa, especially, since you know me personally! But, my balance issues didn't appear when I bought my road bike. I've had 4 road bikes in 6 years and until I am done with school, I am done, despite the fact my current frame was "free." My first two road bikes were 47 cm wsd bikes with very short top tubes. Both had 650 wheels. I didn't feel any different then. And I still feel like my head is flying off and I am going to veer across the road when I descend on my Jamis, with the flat bar and a 44 cm frame. I think some of it is my intense dislike of not feeling in control, which is what I feel once I am going faster than 28-30 mph.
I didn't even learn to ride until I was 10 years old. I couldn't stay upright. And don't even ask me about learning to drive; I'm fine now, but I'm glad I wasn't on the road in another car, when I was first driving! And come to think of it, if I am on a high bridge or in the left lane of a freeway, I don't do too well, either.

[Triskeliongirl]

Crankin, I honestly don't know what your personal issues are, but I can tell you that balance on a bike is critical, and the frame geometry can have a large impact on that.

Another example is how much of the riders weight is on the front vs rear of the bike (as Lisa pointed out). For example I ride a smaller framed bike than my height would predict, cuz I have long femurs so need the seat to be very far back (and need a very slack seat tube angle, <73) but then to feel balanced on the bike, I need a very short top tube (48-49cm!) which means a 24" front wheel to get a bike without TCO and with decent handling (i.e. I have a classic terry body).

My point is the original poster needs to consider all these things.

[Crankin]

I realize geometry is exceedingly important; it's just every time I buy a new bike or make a component change, I really don't feel any different... well, except for the new short reach bars and brifters. There isn't anything unusual about my arms and legs in terms of length of femurs, etc. I am in proportion for my size.
The person who fit me is one of the best in the state. It's true that he may not know everything about fitting a petite sized woman, but there are lots of other women my size who are very happy with their purchases from him. I guess next time I could go custom for about the same money as I spent on my current bike. Seven is right down the road.
In the mean time, I will keep working on my core. Despite my complaining, I have improved my skills a lot.

[malkin]

If the current ride isn't working, it's a fine enough plan to try something, and if that doesn't work, you can try something else.

[Zen]

Crankin, your issues sound very similar to mine.
On my road bike I ride in the drops 99% of the time because I feel I have more control (it changes the geometry of body and bike)
I'm getting better, though.

When I got the upright FX I felt a whole lot more confident and comfortable.

From this experience I would have to say if CyclChyk wants to ride a bike with drop bars she's got the wrong bike

Fit and geometry.

[Triskeliongirl]

The problem for shorter people, is that even if your body is well proportioned, most small framed bikes are not. Just look at any bike geometry chart. On the medium to large framed bikes, the STA is 73 and the top tube and seat tubes are roughly the same length. On the smaller framed bikes, the top tube is always proportionally longer than the seat tube, increasing the reach. This is further compounded by increasing the STA which while this appears to decrease reach, doesn't really, it just makes you need to push your saddle further back to get the same KOP position. To avoid TCO, they may also mess with the head tube angle and fork rake, all of which adversely effect handling. This is all in order to get a 700c or even 650c wheel in a space that is really too small for it to go. That is why I am such a fan of terry bikes with small (24") front wheels. When you don't have to worry about to fit a large wheel in, the frame can be designed with concerns about handling first. Even custom won't solve this problem unless your custom builder is very sensitive to this. I think you only get it if you have a body that has felt the impact of the problem.

I also want to add that one must also consider differences between female and male bodies. So while this is a problem for all shorter statured cyclists, women on average have longer legs, shorter torsos, and especially shorter arms than a male counterpart of the same height. So, you can have a perfectly normally proportioned female body, but not fit well into most of the stock frames that are available, even in the best of shops. Just cuz someone sells you the bike that is the best fit he has in stock or knows how to order, doesn't mean that it is the best fit you could get if you looked at frames built by women for women (or by a framebuilder that really gets this).

I think the reason the original poster feels better on her mountain bike/hybrid is that the reach is shorter w flat bars than w drop bars, so her idea of putting flat bars on her road bike may not be a bad one. HOWEVER, she will lose hand positions and may develop hand pain on a flat bar bike (this happened to me, I had flat bars on my terry classic and switched them out for drop bars). It wasn't until I started riding terry bikes that I could ride a drop bar bike at all.

[SouthernBelle]

I think some of it is my intense dislike of not feeling in control, which is what I feel once I am going faster than 28-30 mph.

Does this happen AFTER you look at your computer and go, "OMG!"? Take it off for a while. OR if you're a mileage junkie, put it where you can't see it when you ride. There are a couple of hills where I put my Garmin on screen 2 which doesn't display mph. That enables me to concentrate on what I'm doing rather than going, OMG!".

[Crankin]

Some of the time, yes, to answer your question, but I make myself NOT look at the computer mostly, when descending. I can pretty much very accurately tell you what speed I am going because I get "that feeling" without looking at the computer. I am better on straight descents (but what descents are straight?). Also, I am fine with turning left, but not right. For example, every time I leave my house, I have to go down the hill, which curves right. My husband routinely tucks in and is going 35-40. The only reason he slows down at times is because of the local x country ski team which uses the hill for practice on roller skis. Once I get to the top of the hill, which is right before the curve to the right, I just clam up. I actually squeeze the brakes so hard I stop in the middle of the road at times. For some reason, it's getting worse. I can't make myself get in the drops, even though I can reach them fine now and the braking action is much better. I tend to go down this hill at 15 to alleviate my fear. Yet, there are other places where I am fine, if it's not too curvy. Ha, you should have seen me on the 7 mile downhill in Austria. My husband was waiting like 15 minutes for me. I actually enjoyed the climbs more, despite the fact they were very tough.
I m sure you guys think I am nuts, but considering where I came from in terms of skills, I've come a long way. I even lead rides and just tell people I am a very cautious descender, feel free to pass me and wait at the bottom.
Trisk, I understand what you are saying about the geometry, but frankly, all that technical stuff gives me a headache. I do not feel competent enough to go into a shop and talk about it on more than a superficial level. i've read up on all of it, but I'll never be entering into a long discussion about it. I do know that I've never had toe overlap, though and I've always wondered what the deal was about it.
Sooo, in deference to CycleChik, I will end here. You gave her good advice. I'd be wary about the flat bar, too, because my hands do hurt when I ride my Jamis.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

The problem for shorter people, is that even if your body is well proportioned, most small framed bikes are not. Just look at any bike geometry chart. On the medium to large framed bikes, the STA is 73 and the top tube and seat tubes are roughly the same length. On the smaller framed bikes, the top tube is always proportionally longer than the seat tube, increasing the reach. This is further compounded by increasing the STA which while this appears to decrease reach, doesn't really, it just makes you need to push your saddle further back to get the same KOP position. To avoid TCO, they may also mess with the head tube angle and fork rake, all of which adversely effect handling. This is all in order to get a 700c or even 650c wheel in a space that is really too small for it to go. That is why I am such a fan of terry bikes with small (24") front wheels. When you don't have to worry about to fit a large wheel in, the frame can be designed with concerns about handling first. Even custom won't solve this problem unless your custom builder is very sensitive to this. I think you only get it if you have a body that has felt the impact of the problem.

I also want to add that one must also consider differences between female and male bodies. So while this is a problem for all shorter statured cyclists, women on average have longer legs, shorter torsos, and especially shorter arms than a male counterpart of the same height. So, you can have a perfectly normally proportioned female body, but not fit well into most of the stock frames that are available, even in the best of shops. Just cuz someone sells you the bike that is the best fit he has in stock or knows how to order, doesn't mean that it is the best fit you could get if you looked at frames built by women for women (or by a framebuilder that really gets this).

Boy did you ever say a mouthful! You exactly described a problem that is very common for women yet seldom explained very well. And it's not just for shorter women either....
I'm 5'5" and this was exactly my problem when on my stock Rivendell (which I love, but it does not fit my women's proportions that well). My center of gravity was too far forward and nothing could fix it. I could never get my weight back off my hands enough to feel balanced- and it wasn't so much because of the reach but more because my seat was too far forward over the crank. The bike was designed with a size 60cm frame and a male rider in mind, and mine was a 54cm shrunken down model with a woman on it.
My problem was totally solved when Margo of Lunacycles.com built me a custom bike based on my measurements and my list of frustrations.
Even though the distance between where both wheels touch the ground is the same, and the reach is not that different, I feel so balanced now and no longer feel like I have to hold my weight up on my hands or else fall on my face. I no longer feel I can't get my saddle back far enough to feel right. My awful elbow pain is gone too. The comfort difference is incredible, it's a joy to ride. Plus, I have almost no toe overlap at all on my Luna, while I do have more on my Riv.
Triskellion, you described the problem so well! For me, it really was a weight balance and center-of-gravity issue more than a simple 'reach' issue.