Are you as appalled as I am?

[Tri Girl]

My DH gets irritated by the jewelry commercials that imply that the only way to say "I love you" is with diamonds. Every kiss begins with K...
I laugh at the commercials and tell him that real love is shown by doing the laundry, mopping the floor, or cleaning the toilet- heck I'd love it far more than a diamond. He can save some money on diamonds because diamonds don't help with the chores.




And the Wal-Mart story is so incredibly sad. People can be so stupid and selfish, and for what? a good deal on a tv or game. Tragic.

From the article:
"Shoppers stepped over the man on the ground and streamed into the store. When told to leave, they complained that they had been in line since Thursday morning."

BFD so you've been in line since Thursday morning. A man died for crying out loud. Go somewhere else for your Christmas shopping. We (as a society) have really become so insensitive to life, haven't we?
Sorry- I'm stepping down off my soap box before I say too much about this incident and cause problems.

[Biciclista]

commercials? Just don't turn on your television.

My two best buddies just sent me the nicest presents ever.
A little tiny button featuring the president elect
two shopping bags (ORANGE) that fold up into a peach sized little holder..
and my best bday present of all?
A letter from a cousin who lives far far far away..

Cars don't buy you love.

[Grog]

One may think that "if you've earned your money than you can spend it however you like." I won't condemn my fellow humans for consuming goods, because I don't believe can throw the first stone; I certainly can't. (Having just ordered lots of luxurious wool clothing items from TE!) On the other hand, I definitely see that consumption is not a private matter at all. It has repercussions for everyone, but generally it's the poor that pay the price in terms of working conditions, environmental degradation, etc.

Air travel for example is something only few people on this planet can afford, yet everyone pays the environmental costs of it (huge amounts of pollution). The same is true for cars, although they are more widely distributed than air travel. To create most of the "stuff" that rich societies consume (electronics, cheap furniture, clothing, and the rest), it takes quite a bit of work performed by poor people in extremely toxic and often repressive environments in developing countries (so that we can pay low prices for them, as exemplified by the Wal-Mart trample). And that's not counting what happens to all that "stuff" when it becomes garbage in developed countries.

I don't have solutions or even suggestions at the moment, I just thought I'd share what's on my mind. Pretty depressing, uh?

[Zen]

Well said, Grog.

Tri-Girl, I just saw that story on TV. Disgusting. The people were still rushing in, jostling the EMT's as they were performing first aid.
I hope this will be the end of Wal-Marts Black Friday Frenzy openings, it happens every year but never before with a death.

[Biciclista]

yeah, Grog, I agree. We have huge footprints, and we're soiling the planet with them.

[Mr. Bloom]

Well, always being one to offer a controversial perspective...are you suggesting that hard working people in poorer countries would be better off if we didn't employ them by purchasing their inexpensive goods? I suppose that while I acknowledge the existence of bad conditions, it's my sense that it's now the exception rather than the rule.

[Zen]

Well, always being one to offer a controversial perspective...are you suggesting that hard working people in poorer countries would be better off if we didn't employ them by purchasing their inexpensive goods?

yes. Do you have a reciprocating saw? I need to borrow one.

I suppose that while I acknowledge the existence of bad conditions, it's my sense that it's now the exception rather than the rule.

sense...

[Eden]

Well, always being one to offer a controversial perspective...are you suggesting that hard working people in poorer countries would be better off if we didn't employ them by purchasing their inexpensive goods? I suppose that while I acknowledge the existence of bad conditions, it's my sense that it's now the exception rather than the rule.

hmmmm..... Just yesterday I listened to yet another documentary piece on the working conditions in China (on NPR).... Dangerous and abusive companies in developing nations sound more than less like the exception.... Sure China has a lot of laws meant to protect workers, but pretty much no enforcement, so they are all just ignored.

Said company I worked at for a short time imported most of its product from China. I saw lots of pictures of working conditions - pretty primitive.... The owners big claim to generosity was buying the guys at one factory sun hats... Forget the fact that many wore shorts and were shirt and/or shoeless... The owner actually once bragged about working some of the guys over there for two days straight and into the wee hours of the morning.... and I'm sure none of the workers got any overtime.... This guy practiced evil ignorance extremely well..... He also said "don't tell me that" when I told him that you cannot dispose of computer monitors in the regular trash... and proclaimed that well the smoke goes up the chimney when I told him burning scraps of plywood gives off toxic fumes... (we had a fireplace in the office...) Other people meant nothing to him. The sad thing is that we have many people in this country (in the world for that matter) who are like him.

I'm not going to put all the burden on the consumer.... it's nearly impossible to avoid buying things from China too... you may not even know it if the parts are made there, but assembled elsewhere. Some things are difficult to buy at all, as they not made elsewhere anymore. I guess I wish collectively the world could show just a little more outrage at the treatment of its fellows, rather than demanding everything be as cheap as possible and perpetuating the abuse....

I'm also not going to take any of the burden away from the retailers.... I watched another documentary about clothing workers in China. I think in the end it cost about $4 in labor to produce a pair of jeans, when shipping and other costs of business were factored in the cost went up to maybe $9ish per pair and they were being sold for $60..... I've yet to be convinced that some retailers couldn't survive on slightly smaller profit margins and pay their workers better... (I know it doesn't work this way for all retailers - places that have to deal with middle men, distributors, and such - like bike shops... they get the costs passed onto them and have to make a profit to stay in business. I'm talking about those middle men and other places that directly sell what they have produced)

[Grog]

Well, always being one to offer a controversial perspective...are you suggesting that hard working people in poorer countries would be better off if we didn't employ them by purchasing their inexpensive goods?

It would be great if solutions to the world's complex problems were so easy! What I am certainly suggesting is that increased consumption is not improving anyone's condition beyond perhaps the immediate short term, not even for those who consume the goods. As much as I hate sounding like an old, bearded ideologue (I don't have a beard), there are still a lot of good times to be had by thinking about the relationship between the Master and the Slave, and how the Master is in fact enslaved.*

I suppose that while I acknowledge the existence of bad conditions, it's my sense that it's now the exception rather than the rule.

At the very minimum, unless you consider living in a perpetual cloud of thick, debilitating smoke to be a good condition, no, the bad conditions are far from being the exception. I will skip the details about authoritarian regimes precluding freedom of speech, freedom of association, and worker's rights, or anyone's rights, for that matter.

North American or European countries will not challenge the situation, as they increasingly see how the giant dragon could crush them if it cared to sit down. Individual outsiders - you and me - can try, but taking pictures or talking to people who know something about what's doing on (middle managers?) is difficult and dangerous. Ironically, as the current economic difficulties in China show, this is another great example of Master-Slave role ambiguities...

* Nobody cares to read Hegel anymore, but this page offers the gist of it: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...1104725AA2hpOZ

Edited to Add: There are also poor people in the United States. There sure are lots in Canada. They also bear most of the weight of pollution and stuff like that. Geez, there are so many problems and so few easy solutions.

[shootingstar]

I guess it does get down to making choices..of what goods/from where such goods originate, that we buy or if not, if we really wanted to be more ethical..do our own gardening, sewing (latter, I did lots for many years, but got lazy after cycling passion), etc. At least I don't support the auto industry, by not having any car.

And even when we rent one, like we did, last Sunday, my partner is fuming away because he is fighting his sleep disorder in order to stay awake behind the steering wheel.

[lauraelmore1033]

I'm not going to get into the argument, but anyone who thinks that the people producing cheap goods for america are "better off" should check out this film: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...94596195828118

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

And be sure to watch this award winning documentary on the subject as well:
http://www.freespeech.org/videodb/in...10826&browse=1

[Biciclista]

oh give me a break. I am embarrassed that people in China are melting the lead from our used TV monitors over a portable burner in their lap and their kids are out playing in the effluent. I am embarrassed that children are working in the fields to produce OUR coffee and OUR chocolate. I have read about the work conditions for factory workers making clothing for our name brand stores. Major corporations are getting rich on this slavery, yes, it's slavery. And no, I don't think they are better off. In a rush to make it rich, the rainforests are being denuded with slash burning and get rich quick agriculture which leaves the indigenous people no choice but to go into the city and take the sh*t jobs offered to them.
No, I don't think we and our consumer society are doing the people in poorer countries any great favors.

[Irulan]

Corporate America and it's consumers aren't' 100% bad: Starbucks is doubling its purchases of fair trade coffee to some 40 millions pounds of organic, fair trade cofee in 2009.
http://sustainablog.org/2008/10/29/s...offee-in-2009/

now, I don't shop Starbucks for other reasons, but I thought this was hopeful.

[Biciclista]

there are some positives, absolutely, but human nature has a tenet that I rarely see NOT followed. Power corrupts. Money Corrupts. If I can use those ignorant savages, I'm going to. And I'll even give them little tidbits so they think they're doing good. And then I'll go home and eat cake.