My knees are killing me...

[aicabsolut]

I have arthritis in both knees, my orthopedist said I have a 60 year old's knees, but I have never had this type of pain before.

At mile 60 in the century I felt posterior tension in my right knee. I am not sure what it says about the fit of my bike to have one knee hurt and not the other. It is still sore 4 days later but improving steadily although I have not been back on my bike.

It could be because of a physical or functional asymmetry. You might be dropping one hip (functionally shortening the reach) which causes the other leg to have a functionally longer reach (as compared to if you had 2 legs of measurably different lengths). So, for posterior knee pain, you might need to lower your saddle a smidge and maybe turn the nose of the saddle slightly away from the side that hurts to try to balance out how you're sitting. These problems can develop over time, because it could take a while for all the muscle imbalances to develop and everything that would lead to pain.

Another thing to keep in mind besides your saddle position is taking a look at your crankarm length. My pelvis gets out of alignment easily. My left SI joint hardly moves while the right one slips out of whack. My left leg is my dominant leg, though I have strong and weak muscles on each leg (stronger quads and gluteus maximus on the left, stronger hams and gluteus medius/minimus on the right). A lot of it is due to many years of being functionally asymmetrical. I can work on my alignment to help some.

A while after I got my bike, I started getting posterior knee pain after doing a fair amount of climbing (though I used to do those same rides with my less fit self with no problems). The pain was worse on the right. My initial bike setup was pretty relaxed..saddle a bit far back, bars fairly even with the saddle. I moved the saddle forward. I noticed an increase in power, but I couldn't get the right knee happy. That made my neck hurt, because now I was too squished in the reach. I got re-fitted, and they moved my saddle farther forward and my bars way down. I then had to move the saddle almost uncomfortably low to get the right knee happy, and then it still wouldn't last when I'd hit the hills. Finally, I found a shop that noticed that my bike had been built with the wrong sized crankarms for that frame size. They were too long. It was only 2.5mm off, but that made all the difference. I got new crankarms installed and I haven't had posterior knee pain since.

I do still run my saddle a bit lower than some people recommend, because when I'm doing a hard effort, I will have more heel-drop than average (and thus more extension of the knee). It is still set up where I can spin with a more neutral foot position comfortably. I also have my saddle slightly farther forward than most, and that position has allowed me to sit more squarely.

I'm not saying you should rush out and buy new crankarms, but if you keep working on your fit and still have problems, that might be something to consider.

[arielmoon]

Oh yes, thank you aicabsolut for sharing your experience. If I understand correctly, they moved the bars down to compensate for the saddle moving forward and that worked to keep your neck from getting sore?

My acupuncturist noticed that my left thigh is bigger than my right so I could very well be asymmetrical.

And I probably do have heel drop from my horseback riding.

From reading your comment I am very hopeful that a solution can be found cause I sure would hate to have to give this up!!

Thank you!

[aicabsolut]

Oh yes, thank you aicabsolut for sharing your experience. If I understand correctly, they moved the bars down to compensate for the saddle moving forward and that worked to keep your neck from getting sore?

Yes, I had to extend my reach to make it more like what it was when the saddle was much farther back, so we lowered the bars fair amount (I already use a 110mm stem). I had been hunching my shoulders up to make more room at my comfortable body angle (and I also have a fair amount of elbow bend), and that stressed my traps, causing neck pain and headaches. I also noticed a big improvement in handling when I lowered the stem angle.

I've just done some more tweaking--I raised the hoods on the bars a couple notches and rotated the bars down so I could have better leverage for sprinting in the drops. Now I feel a tiny bit cramped again from having the hoods closer, even after the downward rotation somehow. I may take out another 1/2cm in the headset.

I have a long history of horseback riding, so maybe that's where my heel drop comes from too! It just feels natural to crank out more power that way.

Good luck! It took me a long time, and it was just a fluke that a friend of mine at the LBS asked me why there were 175mm crankarms on my bike. I hadn't noticed that they were longer than they were supposed to be.

[arielmoon]

Went in to LBS today and we moved the seat down a bit and moved the saddle forward a hair. Too hard to tell if it make the difference since my knee is still hurting. We talked about moving the bars down and or turning the stem over as options if necessary. We decided not to change too many things at one time to see where we are.

[aicabsolut]

Went in to LBS today and we moved the seat down a bit and moved the saddle forward a hair. Too hard to tell if it make the difference since my knee is still hurting. We talked about moving the bars down and or turning the stem over as options if necessary. We decided not to change too many things at one time to see where we are.

Did you notice if it was better at all? I went in for fittings when the soft tissue behind the knee was still hurting. As we moved the saddle around, there was a point where pedaling stopped aggravating it and it actually started feeling better than even walking. Because I had started to get really low and forward (as compared to the fitter's recommendations) by that point, that's when I started looking for any other factor that I was missing (eventually finding the crankarm issue). I would go back and ask the guy to keep moving it until you get relief. Then see where that point is compared to where you "ought" to be and see 1) if there are any problems like you're really leaning on your hands or 2) if there are any ways to mimic that leg position by taking a different approach. If you go too far in changing the saddle position, you can always back it up a notch and see if that lets your knee recover.

[arielmoon]

Did you notice if it was better at all? I went in for fittings when the soft tissue behind the knee was still hurting. As we moved the saddle around, there was a point where pedaling stopped aggravating it and it actually started feeling better than even walking. Because I had started to get really low and forward (as compared to the fitter's recommendations) by that point, that's when I started looking for any other factor that I was missing (eventually finding the crankarm issue). I would go back and ask the guy to keep moving it until you get relief. Then see where that point is compared to where you "ought" to be and see 1) if there are any problems like you're really leaning on your hands or 2) if there are any ways to mimic that leg position by taking a different approach. If you go too far in changing the saddle position, you can always back it up a notch and see if that lets your knee recover.

YES!! The same thing happened for me! It actually felt better than walking and walking felt much better after I rode around with the new settings. I thought that I would see how this is for a few days and then go back and give them feedback. We were hesitant to do too much at one time.

[arielmoon]

Sooo.... Now the right knee is feeling good but it appears that the settings are making my left knee hurt now. I am considering shimming the right cleat to compensate for this.

I had surgery on the left knee last summer after having an accident on my horse. Torn meniscus, strained CL's and ACL and there was some damage cause by my patella. Ok so the pain in my left knee is in the front, patella area and I found that sitting way back on my saddle made it feel better. I moved the seat back a hair more and will see how that goes today.

Also notice that mashing (within reason) feels better to the right knee than spinning. The more the quad does the less the knee hurts.

I iced both knees after my 21 mile ride yesterday and they both feel good- in fact better than they have since the century.

I dont think I mentioned before that I dont have and ACL in my right knee- it was torn when I was 13 and never repaired. One of the guys at the LBS thinks this is part of my problem. I have no idea. I am not going to go back to my DR cause he just wants me to change my lifestyle and that just isnt going to happen. I feel confident this is something I can manage if I can get the settings right on the bike.

[OakLeaf]

How long are your crankarms? I wonder if you need shorter ones. Flexing my knees too much at the top of the pedal stroke gives me problems. And like you, mashing seemed better than spinning when I had crankarms that were too long, for a couple of reasons - the simple fact of fewer pedal strokes per a given distance, and also keeping a lot of weight on the pedals unweighted my @$$ and lifted me slightly higher. With 165mm cranks I'm much happier to spin.

Hope you get it sorted soon, knee trouble is miserable.

[arielmoon]

How long are your crankarms? I wonder if you need shorter ones. Flexing my knees too much at the top of the pedal stroke gives me problems. And like you, mashing seemed better than spinning when I had crankarms that were too long, for a couple of reasons - the simple fact of fewer pedal strokes per a given distance, and also keeping a lot of weight on the pedals unweighted my @$$ and lifted me slightly higher. With 165mm cranks I'm much happier to spin.

Hope you get it sorted soon, knee trouble is miserable.

Does it say somewhere on the crank? It is not listed in the specs on the trek site.

Extending hurts the right knee, bending hurts the left knee.

[OakLeaf]

Does it say somewhere on the crank? It is not listed in the specs on the trek site.

On my 105 cranks it's stamped on the inside of the right crankarm just above the pedal.

I don't know whether there are any good rules for choosing crankarm length. Maybe Knott or someone can weigh in? One of these days I'm going to pick up Andy Pruitt's book It's not just your leg length, it's the tibia/femur ratio (which can't be measured very accurately without X-rays), but a fitter should be able to check your knee angles at both the top AND the bottom of the stroke.

[Cataboo]

It should say around the pedals on the inside of the cranks.

I'm 5'1 and use 165 cranks. The smaller the cranks, the easier it is to spin - and it's usually easier on your knees.

This has some info on cranks and what size they should be.
http://www.nettally.com/palmk/crderiva.html

I get knee pain when I've tried 170 and 172.5 mm cranks

[arielmoon]

It says 172.5.

I am 5'7. 31" inseam. Plugged into that formula puts me at 169.88.

Very interesting info! Thanks for the link!

[Cataboo]

It says 172.5.

I am 5'7. 31" inseam. Plugged into that formula puts me at 169.88.

Very interesting info! Thanks for the link!

My bf's 5'7 - he's got a 33 inch inseam. He uses 170 cranks. He definitely doesn't like 172.5 cranks. He can use 165's, but prefers 170 because he's used to mountain biking.

Too long of cranks will definitely stress your knees - Pay attention to the angles your knees make when you're pedaling - does your knee come above the horizontal, things like that.

[arielmoon]

Thanks for the input Catriona!

After playing around with the adjustments and still not getting relief I am going to call LBS today and have them order me a shorter crank arm set.

Thanks everyone. I will keep this thread posted with how it goes!

[arielmoon]

UPDATE: I called and talked to one of the other mechanics and he claims that 2.5mm is not going that much of a difference on the crank. He was not open to the idea to say the least.

He says the shop has shoe shims that we can try but he really wants me to come in and get re fitted. He is the head mechanic and is a very strong, experienced rider.

I am going to try to do that this week but I am also considering this guy I heard about that does a bike studio fit. Not cheap but really helped a rider I know of.