Hello Everyone! I'm needing some basic info please!

[celerystalksme]

re: Cervelo's negation of WSD:

a LBS guy told me the exact same thing. Cervelo has analyzed data from 50'000 US and UK soldiers, both male and female. So it seems to be be true that except for being shorter, there's no difference.

yeah...

cervelo actually has researched to see if there truly are differences between mens and womens physical dimensions. and there are not. the standard deviations between sexes at a particular height are far less than the standard deviations between individuals of the same sex at a particular height.

keith bontrager also agrees with cervelo. bontrager says that the whole 'womens specfic design' that has sprung up over the last several years had nothing to do with fit. it wasn't an idea suggested by fitters, designers, riders, or engineers. it was concocted by marketers and business men in a board room.

the guy that owns one of the local bike shops agrees with cervelo and bontrager. he's been in the cycling industry for 30 years. worked for trek, yeti, klein, bontrager, etc...plus several custom frame makers and designers. he said he's never had trouble fitting anyone to a bike...either before or after the genesis of womens design. he's says the only difference now is...there are more women buying bikes. they like that someone has catered to them. people like that...i like that. so the marketing may have worked!

and when you look at the women specific bike geometries, you can easily find a mens bike with exact or near exact geometry...or you will notice that the sum of the geometry differences actually puts the rider in nearly the exact same place.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

re: Cervelo's negation of WSD:

a LBS guy told me the exact same thing. Cervelo has analyzed data from 50'000 US and UK soldiers, both male and female. So it seems to be be true that except for being shorter, there's no difference.

LBS guys tell people a lot of things. One told me last year that no one makes steel bikes anymore, for instance. This was news to me! Others have told me equally ludicrous things from time to time.
Lately I notice that some LBS 'guys' like to tell women that ALL the bikes in their shop are "unisex" and therefore they will all fit them, or be made to fit them. Hmmm....

So what about when I SEE the difference when couples are standing in line somewhere? I like to point it out to my DH for fun....
When I see a couple that are the same exact height and wearing similar heel heights or sneakers, I point out how his crotch is usually a couple inches lower than hers, and how his arms are longer and his fingertips end 1-3 inches below where her hands end. I seldom if ever see a same-height couple where their hands end in the same place. Try it sometime, it's fun!

Again, I experienced a HUGE difference for myself when I went from a standard bike (designed around typical men's proportions, and a bike which incidentally my husband also has but is totally comfortable on) to a custom bike built for me. As Cervelo notes, it's not just a simple matter of a shorter top tube. For me it was more an overall matter of poor center of gravity and balance- but the top tube length was only one geometry factor of several that had to be changed in order for a bike to fit me comfortably.

Of course there are many women who due to their body proportions have no problems feeling comfortable on stock 'unisex' (another word for men's if you ask me) bikes. And vice versa- there are many men shoe have shorter arms or longer legs who wind up needing custom bikes as well for the same reason I did.
Generalizations are just that- generalizations. So the term "women specific" is inherently flawed, I agree.
But it still has it's uses when describing certain proportion tendencies.

[alpinerabbit]

yeah...

the guy that owns one of the local bike shops agrees with cervelo and bontrager. he's been in the cycling industry for 30 years. worked for trek, yeti, klein, bontrager, etc...plus several custom frame makers and designers. he said he's never had trouble fitting anyone to a bike...either before or after the genesis of womens design. he's says the only difference now is...there are more women buying bikes. they like that someone has catered to them. people like that...

The bigger problem is that most LBS guys actually know or care very little about frame geometry and will happily sell you a bike that is not the right size for you. Basically they care about getting their stock off the floor.

[tjf9]

I think it is most important to figure out what works for you. Sure, maybe Cervelo measured 50,000 people and determined that on average men and women are the same. But my husband is 5'8' and I'm 5'3 and his legs are only about an inch longer than mine. He and I need very different bikes. I don't know if I'm the one who's not "average" or he is, but a standard men's bike doesn't work for me. Ride lots of different brands of bike before you decide what's best!

[aicabsolut]

2) It is true that most small frames don't fit women properly, but they also don't fit men properly (which is no surprise when you consider issue #1). The problem is that the smaller frames don't really get that much smaller with most manufacturers, both because they don't know how to handle issues like toe overlap and because they don't really understand the correlation between effective toptube length and seattube angle (as unbelievable as it sounds that bike companies sometimes don't understand bike geometry, it's really true).

I agree with most of Cervelo's philosophy (because I can fit just fine on men's frames, and I felt horrible on WSD frames), BUT I just wanted to say that I find it extremely ironic that the worst case of toe overlap I've ever seen is with my friend who rides a tiny Cervelo. Just sayin'...

[Eden]

If all bike manufacturers thought like Cervelo, my husband and myself would probably be stuck buying custom....

[celerystalksme]

I agree with most of Cervelo's philosophy (because I can fit just fine on men's frames, and I felt horrible on WSD frames), BUT I just wanted to say that I find it extremely ironic that the worst case of toe overlap I've ever seen is with my friend who rides a tiny Cervelo. Just sayin'...

I ride a 48cm Cervelo P2C as my TT/Tri bike. With the proper length crankarms and clipless pedals....zero toe overlap. The 48cm Cervelo RS...zero toe overlap. The 48cm R3-SL...zero toe overlap. Those three bikes are MARVELOUSLY designed small frames.

What frame is your friend riding? Is he/she riding clipless pedals? And does he/she have the correct crankarm length? Crankarm length is an issue. Most small frames come with 170mm crankarms...because most of the industry doesn't go shorter than 170mm. But...someone riding a 48cm Cervelo probably has a inseam south of 28.5". Such a person should be using 165mm cranks (because that's the shortest standard crankarm length). However...ideally, a person with legs that short, should get custom cranks in the range of 155mm.

Shorter cranklength and clipless pedals that allow you to ride closer to the ball of your foot will eliminate toe overlap on Cervelo bikes (at least, the ones I either own, owned, or have put some time in the saddle on).

[VeloVT]

Interestingly, my 49 cm bike with 172.5 cranks (in my avatar) has no toe overlap. I actually kind of expected that it might, but it doesn't.

[aicabsolut]

I'm not sure, because she got the bike used (and she has since moved abroad), but based on her riding style (she has a relatively low cadence and puts massive torque on the cranks with big gears--even up mountains), I would think that if anything the crank length is a little on the long side. I am certain they are not shorter than 170s. They could very well be 172.5. All I know for sure about the components is that she hated them, because she's a Campy fan and the bike came with Shimano parts. I think she rides a 48 or 50. Here's a picture of her from this season. Her saddle is a little low there. She'd only had the bike for a few days by the time of the picture, but that doesn't affect the toe issue, which you can kind of see even though she's not quite at 3 and 9 on the cranks.



She didn't have any toe overlap on her old TCR.

I'm not saying Cervelos suck or anything. I'd love a 52cm TT bike (P2, P3, or *drool* P4!). It's just that for some reason this older Cervelo didn't live up to the company's goals.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

It occurs to me that perhaps we are all guilty of getting a little too far removed from the original poster's questions....

I am brand new to riding. So new that I don't own a bike yet, but I want one really bad and was told that this was a great place to get some info
I am 27 y/o, 5'5", 125 lbs, and haven't been on a bike since I was a kid. My town has a great specialty bike store that I plan on visiting very soon. What are the types of bikes (mountain, etc) and what are the price ranges? Thanks so much! I can't wait to get started!

I plan on riding on the street mostly and for FITNESS! I'm ready do do something other than running. I can't wait to get started and I really appreciate everyones help!

the difference between a road bike and a hybrid? Which would be better for fitness? And my price range will be under $1000 for my first bike. Will this be enough for a good bike?

[Zen]

Not unusual

My vote goes to the Trek FX series!

[Flur]

re: Cervelo's negation of WSD:

a LBS guy told me the exact same thing. Cervelo has analyzed data from 50'000 US and UK soldiers, both male and female. So it seems to be be true that except for being shorter, there's no difference.

This is nice in theory. But last time I checked, soldiers were not indicative of the general population. Soldiers tend to me more muscular, more fit, and female soldiers have a much lower body fat percentage than their civilian counterparts. This means that not only will they weigh less, they will also be somewhat skinnier at the same weight, on average. This all plays into bike fit. There's more to it that an inseam to height measurement. So unless soldiers are the primary market for Cervelo bikes, maybe they should analyze data from a cross section of the bike buying population.

[Flur]

Toe overlap: I don't get the big deal here. It doesn't affect anything anyway. I know this b/c my bike has toe overlap.

To the OP:
I agree with what's been said about checking out your local bike shop and then coming back here with what you find out. Ride a couple hybrids and a couple road bikes and see how they feel. This is a good guide for what you'll enjoy. Come back and tell us what you liked and didn't like and what you still want to know.

Happy test riding!

[aicabsolut]

the difference between a road bike and a hybrid? Which would be better for fitness? And my price range will be under $1000 for my first bike. Will this be enough for a good bike?

Anything that you enjoy riding will be good for your fitness. You may go faster or slower or over a variety of terrain depending on the type of bike, but if you're out there riding it, it will help keep you fit.

You might find that you have more options in your price range with certain types of bikes over others, but go out and ride a bunch. Also look into WHERE you intend on riding it. Mostly on the road? You might like the speed of a road bike. Do you want to hit some unpaved trails? Maybe a mountain bike, cross bike, or hybrid would be more suitable, depending on those surfaces. Do you think you'd want to eventually commute on it or need to carry gear or take long trips? Maybe you'd like a touring bike or hybrid with some racks.

Having an idea of your goals will help the bike shop staff assist you in suggesting bikes for you to try.