Women and math

[pll]

Just thought I ought to share an interestijg non cycling story that is getting a fair amount of news coverage:

http://insight.kellogg.northwestern....er_gap_bridged

The original article in Science requires a subscription or payment for access.

[Geonz]

welp, gender gap aside, we do a thoroughly abominable job in math education in this country. It's completely socially acceptable to be "just not good at math" - even the basics - and I've got nothing against better acceptance of diversity, but this acceptance is because so many people are afraid of it to varying degrees... and if you *do* like it, you're considered just a tad odd (tho' I dare say, most people just say you're lucky... not demented or amything )

[OakLeaf]

Well half of my double major in college was math.

Unfortunately I never used it in "real life" and at this point I'm lucky to remember algebra. Certainly not basic calculus or trigonometry

But the odd part, that's stuck with me.

[LainiePants]

Thanks. I enjoyed it.

[TJ_Relic]

http://xkcd.com/385/

I just finished Calculus 3 and Physics 2 this Spring, and was overjoyed to get a B and A. In my experience, men tend to be good at math in a way that makes them too big headed to study and try hard, so they don't do well. Yes, my girlfriends and I aren't "naturals" at it so much as we work our brains out to get a good grade. We are also more apt to want to understand what we are doing, versus arguing with the prof. about how to do it even though they didn't bother doing the homework all semester. Young men being told they are "good" at math/physics/etc. is hurting them because it puts their egos in the way. As a girl, I was often told I was "good" at things, but that always rubbed me the wrong way (labeled: does not take compliments well). I think it was because I knew how hard it seemed to me, and telling me I was "good" at it kind of discounted how much work it took to understand.

My ranting .02

[shootingstar]

I don't recall being discouraged by teachers or parents to be steered from math.

Just knew that it took considerable effort on my part to receive good grades in maths and hard sciences, compared to other women in my family...I have 4 younger sisters who didn't seem to agonize so much to score higher. At least 3 of them had to take several advanced math and physics courses at university level for pre-med, medical and pharmacy degrees. And a niece recently graduated from undergraduate engineering (Canada).

My father really wanted his children to enter the professions..I just went down a slightly different path..which is why he was gender-blind to this math-gender thing. For me it was constant justification of why I was overdosing on fine arts courses.

Even in our extended family, female cousins have predominantly applied science or accounting/finance degrees.

But for a teenage girl to express openly her love of math and physics nowadays, is still probably seen as unusual, maybe even wierd in some girlie circles.

In high school I knew 2 girls, my age, who were consistently just brainy in maths and physics --high 90's (out of a perfect 100 score). One of them was brilliant...and ended up going to Princeton. immediately after high school. You have to remember she came from a small Canadian city, so that was quite unusual in our teenage circles.

But she hung out alot with the nerdy-like, bright guys and was on the debating team...which to even us bright (but not academically brilliant equals) girls, a little strange to us. She never even befriended any of us academically-oriented nerdy girls of which many of us did graduate from university. Wonder what happened to her. In writing this, I just realized, she must have been quite isolated in her growing years of becoming..just a young woman.

The other student....got pregnant..during one of her university years... wonder where she is now. It's an old story..no guy liked her until she bloomed breasts, etc.

[Zen]

I'm still fuming over Watson and Crick ripping off Rosalind Franklin

[Mr. Bloom]

I'm struggling with the whole core of the article, not because I doubt it, but because I have simply not observed it the same way in my life.

First, I agree that in general, training in math is dismal in this country.

But, look at this very forum and the number of seriously intelligent women members who are employed in high level math and science disciplines. In fact, when I had a basic math problem a few months ago relating to a construction project, I came to TE and got the instant solution

Similar to shootingstar, the top 10 in my high school class were evenly split by gender, but the women all went on to be doctors, scientists, and actuaries (the most serious math orientation you can have IMHO).

But, I admit that my experience in private schools and business may not replicate the world as a whole...I'm just saying "it ain't so" in my little microcosm of life.

[Duck on Wheels]

Nah ... I don't believe in the "nature" argument on this issue. I'm thinking of how girls' math abilities seem to magically dwindle when they hit their teens, and how that coincides with the boys in their class hitting their teens and starting to assert their presumed "dominance" over certain fields of life seen as predominantly "masculine". A colleague of mine here was studying kids that age and how they used spaces around their neighborhoods. Girls who wanted to do snowboarding had found that they had to be on the slopes right after school for an hour or so before the boys got there. As soon as the boys got there, they mercilessly teased the girls away. A couple other colleagues studied women engineering students (hey, we're a technical university after all, and the uni has from time to time tried to do something about equal recruitment and student retention). Same thing there. It wasn't that these women weren't interested in engineering; it wasn't that they couldn't handle the math; but, men students and teachers alike consistently broke down the women's self-confidence by laughing at their mistakes, ignoring their insights, and generally making them publicly visible only as sexual objects rather than as colleagues. For instance, when a woman student contributed a brilliant observation or question ... silence. Then some male student would repeat it ... and get all the credit. And this is in Norway, which in my experience is far more egalitarian than the US. For my money (a 2-cent rant's worth, but those 2 cents do come out of my wages as a professor in sociology of science), the so-called "math gap" is just another case of a prejudice reproducing itself.

[mimitabby]

Interestingly, i was heading in the same direction as all the other girls in highschool when as a sophomore i opted for an art class instead of a math class and no one counselled me to do otherwise.
As a junior I was told the only way i could get all the math i needed for college was to take second year algebra and geometry at the same time.
That hotbed of math galvanized my brain and I aced both classes (after getting a C in a boring Algebra I class two years before) I remember competing handily with the honors boys and there not being any other girls in my class that were excelling.
My math aptititude scores were always higher than my reading, and then I married dear Raleighdon who has a math phobia.
As my sons became preteens I noticed them aping their fathers (as boys are wont to do) and complaining that they didn't like math and they "just weren't good at it"
Not wanting them to repeat their father's dismal history, I tutored both of them through basic math and basic algebra until the little lights in their heads went on. One of my sons is about to start grad school as a math major. hehehe.

I'm sorry, i got off topic. I guess what i'm saying is, the same would work for girls. the only thing that was different between me and the rest of the girls in my classes was that i was just a tiny bit less concerned about social pressures and didn't mind being a little different. I already didn't have a lot of friends so i had nothing to lose. and getting the highest grade on that Algebra II final all those years ago still tastes sweet.

[Susan126]

Very interesting article.

The reading gap made me sit up and take notice!

I'll have to share this article with some of my friends.

Thanks!

[uforgot]

I teach math including trigonometry and AP Calculus. I've taught these subjects for over 20 years. As far as problem solvers go, I have never noticed a trend toward either sex. Some years my Calc class will be mostly female and other years male. My top students also tend to be the leaders of the school, whether they are male or female, so it doesn't seem to be uncool to be academic these days. I think these studies may have been true a couple of generations ago when it was expected that females would retire from the work force with their first baby or marriage.

As far as math education being so poor in the USA. We are the only country that is expected to teach everyone equally. I have had foreign exchange students who are "tracked" as soon as they reach 8th grade or so. Their paths are chosen for them. If they show academic promise they are on the college track, otherwise they are groomed for blue collar or other jobs. I'm suppose to treat EVERYONE like they are going to college.

Picture this: 30 students in an Algebra class, some have IEPS for behavior, reading or those who are otherwise mentally handicapped. You also have the kids who are brilliant, and average, in the same classroom of course. I'm expected to teach the same material to all. Yes, Algebra is a requirement for everyone, and starting next year, Geometry will be required for graduation in our district. Don't get me wrong, I love my job, but I feel like some students are being short changed their first couple of years in high school. I can't up the ante until they hit Trigonometry, in which case I tell them to buckle their seat belts.

Before you criticize, walk a mile in my shoes!

[mimitabby]

Picture this: 30 students in an Algebra class, some have IEPS for behavior, reading or those who are otherwise mentally handicapped. You also have the kids who are brilliant, and average, in the same classroom of course. I'm expected to teach the same material to all. Yes, Algebra is a requirement for everyone, and starting next year, Geometry will be required for graduation in our district. Don't get me wrong, I love my job, but I feel like some students are being short changed their first couple of years in high school. I can't up the ante until they hit Trigonometry, in which case I tell them to buckle their seat belts.

Before you criticize, walk a mile in my shoes!

I'm surprised to hear you say this, at highschools around here we have several different "levels" including honors classes. That boring algebra class that i was in so many years ago (on the other side of the country) - that was a non-honors math class with middlish students in it. (the future blue collar workers were in another class, and so were the really sharp kids)

[uforgot]

I'm surprised to hear you say this, at highschools around here we have several different "levels" including honors classes. That boring algebra class that i was in so many years ago (on the other side of the country) - that was a non-honors math class with middlish students in it. (the future blue collar workers were in another class, and so were the really sharp kids)

That's another debate. Should students be tracked? I don't even know the answer. You don't want to label a kid, on the other hand you don't want others held back. I'm also in a small school and there are only two Geometry classes and three Algebra I. You can't realistically divide them anyway if they also want to be in the band, choir and other "one hour only" classes.

Most states are also giving standardized tests that everyone is suppose to pass. We currently have Alg I end of course exam which will start this year, and Geometry end of course exam in the future. All students have to take it in Missouri, thererfore all students have to take the class. Way different than when I was in school, too...many moons ago.

[Geonz]

yea, the 'tracking' debate... it is very hard to do differentiated instruction in a skills-based class like Math. Lots easier in a content course like HIstory.

Great gobs and hordes of the population never even consider a major that would make them *take* Calculus - so who the leaders are in those classes is already a limited slice of the population.

There's an organization called The Algebra Project; they believe that getting students in the math-achievement loop is a critical key in opening up the doors to high educational expectations and a fair shake at being a full-grown, full-blown active citizen in teh community.

Oh, but I loved (NOT) when my home county decided that since people who had taken Geometry did better in college, therefore everybody needed to be signed up for Geometry. Period. It's simple, right? Guess nobody explained the difference between cause/effect and correlation to them, and that the name of a course doens't give you an education.