OT - Politics, Religion... the taboos

[newbiechick]

I just want to say that I'm not sure I've ever encountered another forum anywhere where people have voiced their views, beliefs, concerns, passions, etc. so eloquently and remained so open, accepting, and non-judging of others in the process. Kudos to all of you who've contributed here for taking the high road! While I don't feel a need to weigh in on any particular issue at the moment, I know I'll feel comfortable doing so if/when the time comes.

[wabisabi]

According to the folks at Gallup, 8 of 10 people in the U.S. say they are Christian, with 4 of 10 attending church regularly, but this by no means equates to "conservative." I have a lot of friends who are good old social activist leftist, progressive Christians, some gay and lesbian, some not, as are some represented here. Some Christian churches have very progressive policies toward social justice issues, and would likely take issues with being characterized as "predomimantly" conservative. It's a big country.

[spazzdog]

I believe no one and every one speaks for the gay community. We are no different than the straight community excepting for whom we choose to love.

We are democrats, repulicans, independants, socialists. We are doctors, lawyers, ditch diggers and military personel. We have children by birth or by adoption. We are christians, jews, muslims, buddists and atheists. We are every race. We wear dresses, pants, shorts, sandals, skirts, high heels, oxfords and go barefoot. We travel around the world or never leave our home town. We are your neighbor, your sibling, your aunt, your uncle. We are your child, your child's best fiend, your niece or your nephew.

We are everywhere, in every country. That is what I know about the gay community.

As to eleviating the issues facing my community... I don't have the answers. All I know is the first step in this very young country of ours, is for people to stop being so concerned about what goes on between consenting adults. My marriage (if I have one) has nothing to do with a straight marriage. The U.S.A. is mine as much as it is anyone elses... and I pay the taxes to prove it.

And for the record, marriage is a religious union. If my religion allows marriage why should anybody elses religion care. A legal union is what you get the license for (and pay your state) and something which all people of age should have equal rights to.

spazzdog - who's done all the "cerebral" stuff she can today.

[Melody]

I've come into this discussion a bite late, but I thought I'd put in a word.

I was raised and still am Catholic and very religious. I also don't believe homosexual == pedophile. I am, however, sad for what the Church authorities have done. The Church isn't just the priests and nuns and other officials, but it is also the lay people. Without the people, the Church doesn't exist.

One thing I learned in parochial school was that the officials of the church, the priests and the nuns, are people too and thus fallable. Yes, this even means the Pope. We all make mistakes. None of us are perfect.

I'd like to think, in generally, the Church is a decent organization. We have problems with close mindedness, but that exists everywhere. Conservativism exists. But, another thing I learned was do not believe something is true just because someone in power (like a priest) said that This Is The Truth(tm). Instead, question the belief. Examine it. Is it true for you? Do you feel it is right? If so, embrace it and make it your own. If it isn't, voice your questions and have it explained. The answer "Just because" is not an answer.

Admittedly, it's been tough at times. I had a hard time coming to grips with my own sexuality (I'm bi) and other things going on in my life. I've worked through them and ultimately, I gained strength and purpose.

What's funny is that I'm still a pretty conservative person. I was even a founding member of the Young Republicans at my University. :P But I am also quite liberal in many aspects. I'm a person so not one thing defines me. To grow, is to also change and adapt.

I once had a conversation with my husband about gay marriage and I thought he had an interesting solution. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depends on how you view it) Marriage is both civil and religious. He thought that that instead, it should be seperated. He believes that all Unions should be civil and thus form of contract between two individuals. Thus, gay-straight-whatever, at a state and federal level, would always be a Union and thus laws, such as divorce, inheritance, and medical, would be the same for all.

But, if you wanted a Marriage, then it would strictly be religious and have no bearing from a civil standpoint. It would thus be up to that religion if they would allow gay marriage, but all such marriages would have no legal standing, only a religious one.

I hope I made some sense in all of this.

Mel

[bcipam]

I once had a conversation with my husband about gay marriage and I thought he had an interesting solution. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depends on how you view it) Marriage is both civil and religious. He thought that that instead, it should be seperated. He believes that all Unions should be civil and thus form of contract between two individuals. Thus, gay-straight-whatever, at a state and federal level, would always be a Union and thus laws, such as divorce, inheritance, and medical, would be the same for all.

But, if you wanted a Marriage, then it would strictly be religious and have no bearing from a civil standpoint. It would thus be up to that religion if they would allow gay marriage, but all such marriages would have no legal standing, only a religious one.

That's exactly what I think should be allowed and don't understand why it has not yet occurred. Any two, sound minded consenting adults should be allowed to form a legal union in order to consummate their commitment and to legally grant the same rights to each partner regardless of sexual orientation. Marriage is and should remain a religious union.

I believe as Americans every citizen has the right to protection under the law. Federally there are protected classes such as persons of color, religious affiliation, woman, persons over 40, the disabled etc. Sexual preference is not a protected right and I suppose there are alot of good valid arguments as to why it is not and there are good arguments as to why it should be included. Gays have been discriminated against but then again, so have persons who are overweight, or who choose to dress in an inappropriate manner accepted by society (such as goth, punk, gangstra etc). I believe its the general concensus that those groups choose to be that way as opposed to say being born black or brown. You do have a choice to conform and operate within normal society (by the way, not my opinion, I believe being gay is a biological/genetic issue).

Many people (and this includes a number of my friends) believe gays make the choice to be gay and thus can make the choice to return to being straight in order to conform with society. It's interesting that this thread combines religion and sexual preference as religion, which is Federally protected, is the one protected right that a person chooses. I cannot choose to be black, a woman, over 40 but I can choose to be a Christian.

It appears, from reading the posts on this thread, that some gays have turned away from God. I can understand not feeling welcomed by the Church body. It is very hard for people to understand that the Church is not God but a body of people who struggle to learn and understand and live within God's laws and no church is perfect or has it right. I hate to see people turn away from God because of something a church (and by that I mean its people) has done. That Church and its people are full of sin and pride and thus looked down upon by God.

I know there are alot of different churches out there. Somes welcome gays (all churches should welcome gays but then again, there are alot of stupid, uneducated and uniformed people out there). One can also study the bible on their own and by doing so, will understand how God sees all us children. As his creation we are all equal, not one more so than the other. We unfortunately develop as we mature and grow, through experience and temptation, a sinful soul, it's hard to live life without breaking the Commandments or without pride. Hopefully it's through a Forum such as this one we can discuss, learn and understand the shoes each of us walks in.

I myself for many years did not have belief in God (I was raised Buddist by the way). Several years back I had an experience which I would not wish on anyone (trust me it was your worse nigthmare), but through it I came to understand that God does exist, that he offers us each a better life and that I no longer need to be afraid of dying because something so much better is waiting for me. I can't tell you how much beter my life has been since I accepted Jesus as my savior. Now is it all bunk? I suppose it might be, but I have faith I'm right in knowing God exists.

* * *

It's a shame that these types of discussion must be catagorized in a "taboo" section. That expressing one's belief causes other to get angry and upset. Just know that I'm interested in hearing each person's thoughts and want to understand how each of us think and live.


OK - enough already I guess... I need to go ride!

[spazzdog]

I called it "the taboo's" because it encompasses all the subjects you're told should never be discussed at social gatherings, not because I particularly believe them to be "taboo subjects".

That's all...

[Veronica]

It's a shame that these types of discussion must be catagorized in a "taboo" section. That expressing one's belief causes other to get angry and upset.

On most other boards, this thread would have been deleted almost as soon as Spazzdog started it because the participants on other boards don't know how to play nice and respect each other. A lot of boards specifically say not to bring these topics up because they cause so much dissension. The anonymity of the net gives some individuals the freedom to be as rude and disrespectful as they want. We've demonstrated we can be more responsible, so we're given more freedom here.

I wonder if part of why we are so understanding of differences here is that many of us are not "anonymous." We've met, we've ridden together. We are a "community." Even those we've never met, we feel like we know. How many of us have read Denise's journal every day? I've never met her, but I'm reading her journal. How many of us are cheering Emily's recovery on? Again, I've never met her, but I'm thrilled that she's progressing well. I love my Brooks saddle and I wish Nuthatch's was working out better for her. I hope Surly gets her bike soon. When you're part of a group, you are more conscious of not upsetting it.

Now I need to think about going for a ride,


V.

[Trek420]

Veronica hits the nail on the head with "part of why we are so understanding of differences here is that many of us are not "anonymous." We've met, we've ridden together. We are a "community." Even those we've never met, we feel like we know."

Most prejuidice I feel is based on fear, people fear the unknown, avoid it, which then easily becomes "us vs. them". So folks think they don't know any Gay folk and fear that. I know lots and lots of Christians (Half my family. Has anyone in my family married a nice Jewish boy/girl?) but none well that are conservative.

Here we get to ride together, even those who are nowhere nearby share that it feels less alone because we share out experiences of rides .... and share cookies. We find out we have lots in common not just the bikes.

maybe if more people did this.....

Now I need to go find matching socks.

[singletrackmind]

I bet the chances someone they hold in esteem is gay, even if just a friendly acquaintance, is very likely.

I wish those that are fearful (I think you're right) could not only realize this but also not look at the gays they do know through different eyes.