Women's Specific Designs

[massbikebabe]

Tim:

Bring back that old steel red Masi like the one used in the movie Breaking Away, make it wsd, and you will have a fan(s) for life. I loved that bike!

karen

[Bluetree]

*wsd needs to have better component options

+ zillion

As if women don't think they're good enough for DA/Record/Red, lightweight frames, carbon cranks or fierce paint jobs. Stop the patronizing already!

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Well Bluetree- now that you've bumped up this 3 1/2 year old thread (I thought it was new for a minute!), the question becomes....
Did he and his company wind up going ahead with the WSD bike, and if so, what did they come up with that is specifically for women?

[Eden]

+ zillion

As if women don't think they're good enough for DA/Record/Red, lightweight frames, carbon cranks or fierce paint jobs. Stop the patronizing already!

As long as its been bumped.... This is why Specialized, no matter what anyone else thinks about them or their business practices, has my loyalty.... At the time I bought my bike it was the *only* nice carbon frame that was sized to fit me. And yes it came with full DA and a very purty paint job (its the original deep burgundy, good looking without being overly girly).

[uforgot]

Well Bluetree- now that you've bumped up this 3 1/2 year old thread (I thought it was new for a minute!), the question becomes....
Did he and his company wind up going ahead with the WSD bike, and if so, what did they come up with that is specifically for women?

Actually, I've been following the Masi blog since I ordered my mixte in Sept. They have added a few bikes. First there is the Soulville Mixte which I have and was introduced in 2008, and then if you follow this link there are pictures from Interbike where they introduced the Masi Alare Bellissima and the Vincere Bellisima. The road bikes are in part 1 and my mixte is in part 1. Not sure about the availability of the road bikes, but it looks like they are on the way, which is good news for stumpy armed long legged women like me.

[OakLeaf]

+ zillion

As if women don't think they're good enough for DA/Record/Red, lightweight frames, carbon cranks or fierce paint jobs. Stop the patronizing already!

As long as we're reviving this thread, it's now 2009, and things are very different from what they were when the thread started. (And very, very different from 1987 when I had a custom frame built because there was no such thing as a WSD bike.)

The "Big 3" now offer WSD bikes with full DA. Cannondale offers Red as well. Orbea can be had with Super Record, DA or Red.

Giant and Bianchi still don't offer the same level of componentry on their WSD bikes, but I'm having trouble thinking of any more mass-marketers who offer WSD frames at all.

Honestly, I really think this is a non-issue. If you're spending that much money, why aren't you building your bike up yourself? I'm more likely to believe that the sexism works the opposite way. A guy is a lot more likely to just lay down $8,000 for a complete bike, without putting any independent thought into the componentry, "because his friends told him it was the best one." When a woman's ready to spend that kind of money, she'll have a frame built, or buy an off-the-rack frame and build it up herself with whatever level of componentry she wants.

[mariacycle]

Sorry to resurrect this topic again, but I feel like many of the pro-WSD women have small frames (under, say, 5'3") and have difficulty finding a men's bike that fits their needs. I am just shy of 5'6" and am currently riding a 17" Fuji Absolute. I want to buy a decent road bike (maybe in the ballpark of $1k-$2k) and I'm trying to decide whether or not a WSD is worth it for me. I don't know whether or not the WSD make a big difference for a woman that is 5'6"+

Thoughts? Thanks everyone for your patience on the WSD debate

[ny biker]

Sorry to resurrect this topic again, but I feel like many of the pro-WSD women have small frames (under, say, 5'3") and have difficulty finding a men's bike that fits their needs. I am just shy of 5'6" and am currently riding a 17" Fuji Absolute. I want to buy a decent road bike (maybe in the ballpark of $1k-$2k) and I'm trying to decide whether or not a WSD is worth it for me. I don't know whether or not the WSD make a big difference for a woman that is 5'6"+

Thoughts? Thanks everyone for your patience on the WSD debate

I'm 5'7" and I have a regular (not WSD) frame. When I bought my road bike in 2002, they did a fit kit at the LBS and said I could go either way. I don't think I even tried out a WSD bike.

However over the years I've had to make various adjustments to deal with aches and pains in my neck and shoulders, most recently switching to a very short stem that angles up in order to shorten the reach. If it was in my budget, I would have tried out some different bikes and seriously considered getting a WSD frame.

So, I would say (1) height is not the only measurement to consider and (2) try out several bikes, including WSD and non-WSD and see which one feels best.

BTW if you're near Reston, VA, I highly recommend seeing Adam at the Bike Lane for a fitting. He's done a great job making my bike way more comfortable.

[MartianDestiny]

Sorry to resurrect this topic again, but I feel like many of the pro-WSD women have small frames (under, say, 5'3") and have difficulty finding a men's bike that fits their needs. I am just shy of 5'6" and am currently riding a 17" Fuji Absolute. I want to buy a decent road bike (maybe in the ballpark of $1k-$2k) and I'm trying to decide whether or not a WSD is worth it for me. I don't know whether or not the WSD make a big difference for a woman that is 5'6"+

Thoughts? Thanks everyone for your patience on the WSD debate

It is not your height that matters, it is your build type.

I'm 4'11", I've purchased 3 bikes in the last 1.5 years, none of them are WSD (though one is custom). Two are off the shelf "unisex" bikes (a road and mountain). I have one WSD frame left in my stable and it's the worst fitting bike I own (and probably soon to be for sale).

This is all despite me being one of the "shorties" that should have a horrible time finding unisex frames to fit (I won't say it's easy) and "should" fit better on WSD.

Why? I have a long torso and short legs (like a typical guy's build, rather than a typical women's build with a shorter torso). In fact my torso is so long I wear a men's medium in backpacking packs (but I'm only 4'11"!!!!!).

Typical WSD shortens the top tube (reach) relative to seat-tube (standover/leg length), NOT what I need at all. They also provide women's bars, grips, saddles, etc. Which is great, but I just swapped out all my contact points (I have my preferred ones and would have done that regardless).

So my point is, at 5'6" a WSD bike may very well help you, or it may be totally wrong, or you may be close enough that it just won't matter (WSD or unisex could fit well). Ride some bikes, or have a fit done, or both and see what works.

[kjay]

Pro WSD! I'm 5'4 with a relatively short inseam and my Trek Pilot is perfect for me. Maybe an old thread but still worth talking about today. Thanks!

[katherine]

This is a great thread to resurrect. When buying my mtn bike last year I went back and forth about WSD. At 5'8" I can reasonably ride a vast majority of bikes. Nonetheless, my legs, while not supermodel long, are longer than they would be if I were a man, 31 inseam. Some of the men's bikes (it's not unisex, they're built for dudes) I test rode felt good. But nothing felt as good as Specialized's WSD, (Era). I will probably lean towards WSD bikes forever. Plus, I see buying WSD stuff as voting with your dollar, forcing companies to recognize that women ride bikes, buy gear, and deserve attention.

[MartianDestiny]

This is a great thread to resurrect. When buying my mtn bike last year I went back and forth about WSD. At 5'8" I can reasonably ride a vast majority of bikes. Nonetheless, my legs, while not supermodel long, are longer than they would be if I were a man, 31 inseam. Some of the men's bikes (it's not unisex, they're built for dudes) I test rode felt good. But nothing felt as good as Specialized's WSD, (Era). I will probably lean towards WSD bikes forever. Plus, I see buying WSD stuff as voting with your dollar, forcing companies to recognize that women ride bikes, buy gear, and deserve attention.

And this is why I dislike the terms "men's" "women's" "WSD" and "unisex".

No, they aren't "built for dudes" or really "built for women". "men's" or "unisex" bikes are simply built the way bikes have been built for a very long time (with some modifications), and during that time it's not as if women were simply not riding them. Bikes were just made without huge amounts of thought put into different body proportions (and the assumption that stems and seatposts could make up the difference). What this actually means varies WILDLY with frame size and manufacturer (a size 44 "men's"/"unisex" bike is NOT built the same as a 54 which is not built the same as a 62 even in the same bike and as you get to the extremes of sizing (44, 62 as examples) the "men's" bike and the "women's" bike show VERY LITTLE IF ANY difference even today)

A "WSD" bike is just as much "unisex" (with the exception of the girly flower graphics and pastel colors some manufacturers insist on using) as a "men's" bike, frame wise. Only big difference? A shorter top tube relative to other bikes with the same seat-tube measurement (and ok, typically available a size or two smaller)

Now, that is a SIGNIFICANT difference, I will not argue with that. But calling them "women's specific" means many MEN that could benefit from this geometry change (and/or availability of smaller frames) never consider it. It also means many women (myself included) that actually fit better on a "men's" frame don't get a good fit either because the marketing (and sales-people uninformed in advanced fitting) tells them "but this was made for you"...when it wasn't it was made for a stereotype (and I'm not even convinced a well understood one at that).

What they really are are different sizing schemes. A "longer relative reach" and a "shorter relative reach".

Honestly, it makes more sense to market them this way, much the way Trek now has a "performance" fit and "Pro" fit (with the only real difference being headtube length) to accommodate different types of rider. Of course that marketing strategy won't take off anywhere near as well as having a whole different line of bikes and saying they are "women's only"....because for some reason our brains think that if it's gender specific it must be better (which is true in some cases, but I don't think it's true in bike fit).

[katherine]

And this is why I dislike the terms "men's" "women's" "WSD" and "unisex".

No, they aren't "built for dudes" or really "built for women". "men's" or "unisex" bikes are simply built the way bikes have been built for a very long time (with some modifications), and during that time it's not as if women were simply not riding them. Bikes were just made without huge amounts of thought put into different body proportions (and the assumption that stems and seatposts could make up the difference). What this actually means varies WILDLY with frame size and manufacturer (a size 44 "men's"/"unisex" bike is NOT built the same as a 54 which is not built the same as a 62 even in the same bike and as you get to the extremes of sizing (44, 62 as examples) the "men's" bike and the "women's" bike show VERY LITTLE IF ANY difference even today)

A "WSD" bike is just as much "unisex" (with the exception of the girly flower graphics and pastel colors some manufacturers insist on using) as a "men's" bike, frame wise. Only big difference? A shorter top tube relative to other bikes with the same seat-tube measurement (and ok, typically available a size or two smaller)

Now, that is a SIGNIFICANT difference, I will not argue with that. But calling them "women's specific" means many MEN that could benefit from this geometry change (and/or availability of smaller frames) never consider it. It also means many women (myself included) that actually fit better on a "men's" frame don't get a good fit either because the marketing (and sales-people uninformed in advanced fitting) tells them "but this was made for you"...when it wasn't it was made for a stereotype (and I'm not even convinced a well understood one at that).

What they really are are different sizing schemes. A "longer relative reach" and a "shorter relative reach".

Honestly, it makes more sense to market them this way, much the way Trek now has a "performance" fit and "Pro" fit (with the only real difference being headtube length) to accommodate different types of rider. Of course that marketing strategy won't take off anywhere near as well as having a whole different line of bikes and saying they are "women's only"....because for some reason our brains think that if it's gender specific it must be better (which is true in some cases, but I don't think it's true in bike fit).

Well that will teach me to venture an opinion.
The original question was is it worth it to look at WSD bikes if you're a taller than average, or even average height woman. As a woman who is taller than average and rides a variety of bikes, my favorite is a WSD. Just my experience.
Also I would like to remark that my brain is unlikely to be fooled by marketing strategies that paint things pink, decorate them with butterflies, or otherwise girlify them. My mind is not so limited by gender binaries, now if you excuse me I must get back to that thesis I was writing, you know, the one on post-modern feminism.

[mariacycle]

Thanks so much for the clarification! I didn't even know exactly what the difference was with WSD bikes. As far as components go, don't most women end up switching up the saddle anyways to a more appropriate one? Also, what's the difference in handlebars? TIA and I really appreciate everyone's patience with answering these questions from both a technical standpoint and from experience... you have no idea how much more useful your advice is than just reading a WSD article from google!

[Tiddle]

Sorry to resurrect this topic again, but I feel like many of the pro-WSD women have small frames (under, say, 5'3") and have difficulty finding a men's bike that fits their needs. I am just shy of 5'6" and am currently riding a 17" Fuji Absolute. I want to buy a decent road bike (maybe in the ballpark of $1k-$2k) and I'm trying to decide whether or not a WSD is worth it for me. I don't know whether or not the WSD make a big difference for a woman that is 5'6"+

I fit into that small frame category (5.1") - When I started getting serious about cycling I assumed WSD was the answer to everything regarding fit problems. But now I think its about greater choice for all riders - bigger range of sizes and adjustments. There are many short men and tall women out there, and some women have short legs and long torsos.

Its one of those cruel ironies that those who need the most help with bike fitting are the ones that can rarely test the bike to see if it fits. Bike shops will never have smallest or largest sizes in stock and will rarely order it just to try. Tall men/women would have an equally hard time as short men/women.

Bike shops should be measuring people before selling them a frame and fitting them out with the correct choice of crank length / bar width etc. But they are only too happy to put them on whatever bike is in stock. (I booked a fitting when my WSD bike arrived, which consisted of the guy standing back and saying "yeah - looks alright to me see how you go with it, we could put the saddle up or down a bit!" A poor fitting bike is unsafe and can put people off riding forever!

Wouldn't it be nice if someone invented a bike fitting device (not just a slide rule on a pole) - like an adjustable dummy frame that can be angled and altered to mimic the geometry of any bike - so you just get on the imaginary bike fitting frame and as a rider you can feel what the angles of your proposed bike will be like and if you can standover it or reach comfortably - every bike shop should have one! (anyone on TE and engineer?)


(And while I'm at it, manufacturers need to offer ALL the frame sizes to other country's... I've looked at so many manufactuers sites recently only to discover they make an extra small size but don't supply it to Australia... grrr there are short people here too you know!)