Here's one that will take a long time

[Wahine]

Maybe you could convince him to take a bike touring weekend with you and just where things go?

[Starfish]

I wouldn't force a date on him, either, with the dressing up and all that.

I don't think you can force someone to go on a date, dress up or any other kind. You just ask, and they either go or they don't. It is up to them.

But, that really is what it comes down to...all you can do is ask for what you want, or make your feelings known one way or another (in a way that works for you), and then let go of the outcome.

And, as far as "ruining a friendship," the risk is either worth it to you or it isn't. You could lose or strain something you have now, and be sorry. You could gain something beautiful, and be contented. (ETA...or experience a gazillion other possible outcomes that you cannot predict.) Only you know where you currently fall on this spectrum of risk.

I really do wish you peacefulness. I know that when feelings are involved, these are not easy questions. <insert gentle smile>

[Zen]

So in a roundabout way, I think I covered all the bases and answered nothing.

How about this-
would you rather regret something you did do or something you didn't do?

[lph]

aaah - I had that as my guideline for a while - and let's say I certainly regret some things I did... If you're somewhat the reckless type, you'd better have a bad memory.

Joking aside, I think Tuckervill put it beautifully. You have to be true to yourself and the relationship that's already there. I'd say skip all the careful flirtation if you're actually kinda sick of it. If you can be honest and straightforward without seeming desperate I'd say your chances are good of both getting an honest answer and keeping him as a friend. You want to tell him you're interested, but also that you're not going to shrivel up and die if he says no.

But it would help if you were somewhere conducive to this kind of conversation. And yes - some of us put this a lot better in, uh, body language than in words.

Scary stuff, this. But hey - it's what makes the world go round, right?

[Geonz]

Those are words to keep going back to... because yes, we have a wonderful relationship, and I don't get that close to people easily. And the thoughts here have helped me realize that yea, the bottom line here is I want to figure out how to cross a physical threshold and/or I really wish I could translate the assorted signals so I could have half a guess as to where he felt about that... except that I'm reasonably, positively certain that... he is totally and completely up in the air about it and wafts back and forth. (We had a completely hysterical conversation once with another friend, getting the bikes off his car to go for a metric century. The other friend was having trouble getting her wheel off by herself and so he & I had this banter about having had entirely too much practice getting things off by ourselves and for at least part of the conversation she was trying to make sense of that in a bicycling context...)
Yes (per the advice of another friend and just natural sense), I've been doin' my darndest to have casual contact but the fact is I am a *practiced* klutz so even folding bicycles in close proximity ... I'm mroe concerned with not mashing my fingers in a hinge than the odd caress
Much appreciation felt for the kindness & encouragement.

[teigyr]

How about this-
would you rather regret something you did do or something you didn't do?

That makes my head hurt. I had an initial response but then thought more and wafted and then thought more and went back to my initial. It's early

DH was about as circular as I am. He says the variables are: he knows and doesn't feel the same way, he knows and DOES feel the same way but doesn't know how to initiate it, he's thought about it but doesn't know your feelings (and his are either pro or con), and he has never thought about it.

DH thought it could be brought up a few ways that would allow the relationship to stay intact. One way could be "hey, have you ever thought about..." or the more evil way of setting up a story of "I was talking to <insert name here> and were discussing the perfect traits in a person I'm dating. I kept coming back to you. Have you ever thought of...?" I don't like the second way because I'm bad at making up stories. DH thought the R word (relationship) could be brought up because there is a relationship already.

I think no risk no gain but you have to be prepared for all eventual outcomes. For me, at least, the known is generally better than the unknown.

Good luck though and please keeping posting as to what happens! Re the "accidental" physical contact...I keep thinking of the H.S. days. You know, when the guy yawns and puts his arm around you or the old "I have to roll up the car window" maneuver. Then again, I guess most car windows don't "roll up" anymore

[Zen]

I keep coming back to "well, there's always alcohol"

[Geonz]

That is absolutely, very much the kind of tactic I'm thinking of. In Vino Veritas. NOthing on a "have some madeira, my dear" scale, but

I've been subtly applying the suggestion machine in my household, which is not to be confused with my house, which is occupied by the mom and four sons who are grandsons to the couple whose house I"m staying in while their daughter figures out where to go since it's not back to her husband. (I stayed with them for several years when I first came out here... it *is* an act of generosity but a reciprocal one.) Before her heart surgery they'd entertained some... tho' now the oft-visiting grandkids use up most of that energy. Except that they like this guy rather a lot, too and he doesn't really require entertainment energy. And this winter has just sucked for stuff like that... and right now the grandkids are passing around the flu so everybody including mom is sick so the healthy ones get dropped off at grandpop's so everybody's exhausted. But somehow I shall figure out a way to have this fellow over and the wine will flow. I even think my tolerance might be higher

[jillm]

Hi Sue,

I've been following your thread like it's a soap opera! You know I don't post much but I had to get in on this.

How about one of these days when it's warmed up some, take a ride out to Sleepy Creek Vineyards over in the Oakwood / Fairmount area. They've got a little pond, you can have a glass of wine...there are a couple of kitties moseying about. It's a lovely place. (btw, Little Woody is my favorite, Dreamer is a good white, the others are too sweet for my taste, but still good) So have a glass of wine and pass him the note "will you go will me, check yes or no"... Is there a grown-up version of that?

You've met Geoff. We were platonic friends for 10 years and then something happened. It was just the right time for both of us, and we've been together for 6 years now. I see your situation as similar. Maybe the timing is right for you.

Good luck!
Jill

[Geonz]

thanx

I had an odd little inspiration last night out at the newly opened MOnical's, where our waiter was an imported manager from out west (Peoria or something ) and solicitous as all get out, sitting and chatting with us for a while... I was thinking "Save me from extroverts " - tho' he wasn't boring; he was as good a listener as talker. Everybody had gone and I was putting on the helmet, and he just gave a little touch on the arm as he passed by and said "and be careful, okay?" and it gave me the warm fuzzies, 'cause somehow he managed to be tender without invading my personal space.

So I went out to test drive that Dahon Speed P8 which I am going to adopt, thank you, and psyched myself up to relax and steal some of that natural openness. It'll take practice, but I think I did that silly nonverbal communication better as he went out to see his mom.

And of course this adoption will take a while. I have to go for lessons in folding, get a speedometer put on it... and then get the guys to help me figure out how to get the folding bike on the Xtracycle

[Geonz]

HIs mom passed away Wednesday night. Now to write on that card why I love his mom even though I never met her. The visitation & funeral are 130 miles away (even if I had a car...) I'm thinking of hand-delivering something to his back doorstep (where he'd go from the garage) for when he's come back.

[Starfish]

Geonz, if this guy is quite special, his mom very likely had a lot to do with that.

I think your idea of putting something there for him for when he gets home from the funeral is a good one.

I lost my mom last year, and out of numbness and self-protection, I held it together through a SRO funeral. After having to keep everything going through her care and the arrangements, and with my dad...it took a long time for me to unwind at the end of that day, and really let go like I needed to.

I had a dear cousin sit up with me until almost midnight, when the dam burst. It really helped me un-freeze to have a tender presence there for that. And, my mom was my best friend. You don't get over that loss in a hurry. For me, the small remembrances here and there in daily life, and the small gestures from my friends, letting me know they realized I wasn't "over it," as time went on, really helped (and still help).

Every person grieves differently and needs something different. In my case, I needed the TLC after (and ongoing) when the hoopla of funeral and condolences died down. That's just me. It took one of my brothers months to admit how hard he was grieving, though.

The hardest thing for me was when people stopped asking about it...as if it was all done. But, for my brother, he wasn't ready to feel his feelings yet, and it just annoyed him when people asked. People are so different.

But, if you care, show it. Just be authentic. He is lucky to have a friend like you.

[lph]

Starfish's point was good, that his mom helped make him who he is.

Depending og how close he was to his mother and his own personality, he may not grieve that openly or want to share much. But he will feel the loss a lot more around holidays and typical family events, especially the first year. Remembering to ask him how he's doing around times like these, when everybody else has stopped asking, is maybe one of the most thoughtful things you can do to help.

[Geonz]

You can't knkow how much this helps ... he's one of these (like me) very tactical and cool and unemotional guys - but not really (like me . Not that he represses it; he just doesn't talk about it much or show it often. Yet, basically... if you know how to ask, it's there - and when I make sure to remember that without overthinking it, good things have happened. So... card, foodstuffs, a wine he rather likes, and... no, not a phone number to call, a phone call. Both. (Um, one ridiculous complication is that I have an inexplicable resistance to making phone calls. It's as if I didn't know the things were invented; I don't think of it. Good grief ) He's out of town but the man does have a cell phone.

[KnottedYet]

Call him and leave him a message just letting him know you're thinking of him. In all likelihood his cell phone is off right now and you will get voicemail. When my dad died, it was message like that which really helped me.

Nevermind the romantic stuff in the background, he's probably not thinking about it right now, just call the guy as a friend. Overcome your resistance to making phone calls, even if only this one time. Losing a parent is devastating and numbing and overwhelming. He may really need to just know someone is thinking of him right now.