How do I tell a friend....

[Veronica]

I wouldn't let her have the dog or the kid back. It doesn't sound like she is raising either properly. Intimidation isn't the way to train either. And the realtionship with the boyfriend doesn't sound all that healthy.

Since keeping the kid and dog really isn't an option, is this someone you want to stay friends with? Does she have some positive qualities that you haven't told us about? Can you have a frank discussion with her? Maybe she just doesn't know how to positively discipline.

I've always thought training dogs and training kids required the same behavior from the "parents" - firm, fair and CONSISTENT. This is based on training one Rottweiler and over 500 ten year olds. The dog learned better than some kids.

You have been a really great friend to take both dog and child for so long.

V.

[Trek420]

You've gone above and beyond taking care of the kid and the dog.

I'm a "single parent of a dog" and my dog (pit/lab/sumthin'/sumthin'/sumthin mix) is adopted from the pound. While she was house broken from the getgo, I've done a lot of other training/socialization. Your dog guest's problems are fear based, dogs who are very frightened will urinate. Get more frightened? They could bite. This dog sees a lot of anger, dog gets hit, kid gets slapped, your friend????

Boyfriend sounds like quite the catch too....not.

I've always used positive methods only to train Mae (my dog), lots of praise, positive reinforcement, treats when she does well or when starting to do a new behavior even *close* to it.

I don't have kids (that I know) of but I suspect this works for them too ;-)

I agree with V, doesn't sound like she is raising either the kid or the dog properly, and frightened dog with frightened kid is not good, can even be dangerous. Intimidation and fear doesn't work for either. Would she be receptive to getting help? Can you keep the dog or find someone to?

[singletrackmind]

First off, I don't have any idea of what I'm talking about. I don't know you, I don't know your friend and I don't know the circumstances of your friendship. Below is from the feelings I got from your post...
_________________________________________________________________

It's very kind of you to give the little girl nearly a week of your time despite all of your other obligations. I worry about her, if her mom's willing to smack her in front of you what does she do in private???

How important is this friendship to you? Is it really worth hanging on to when it seems to cause you so much stress? Is she really a friend if you'd lose her through a bit of hard honesty? Are you finding yourself feeling more doormat than door? Is there someone, maybe some sort of child abuse counselling place, that you could ask about aproaching this very sensitive subject? Someone who could help you find the words to use? Your kids' school counsellor maybe? Do you really want your kids to witness her behavior towards her kid? Do you really want to continue to witness it yourself? Can you NOT say something, even a tiny something??

Wow, I can't imagine how hard this is for you. Best of luck to you and to this woman's little girl and dog. Best of luck to your friend too, she sounds like she could use a little help in relationships with other living beings. The way she does things may be the only way she knows, maybe the way she grew up with herself? She really may not realize there is a different way of doing things.

Who ever heard of 'training' a guy through example?? And here I've been using the frying pan method! (ok, really, if I want my husband to do something he hasn't thought of I have to ASK him, then let him make his own choice).

[madisongrrl]

Quote:
"She puts her dogs nose in the urine and gives a smack on the hind legs after the accident and puts her out."

This would explain why her dog isn't housetrained.... Dogs who are punished in this matter only learn that their owners are dangerous...they don't learn to potty outside...

I would suggest that your friend buy a copy of The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. The beautiful thing about training dogs with positive reinforcement/operant conditioning is that you can apply it to children also...

[LBTC]

Wow! Autumn, you've got yourself a conundrum, there! Luckily, all the girls here have offered you great ideas and advise.

What I've learned over the years is - I can't change anybody else's behaviour. If I can't bear to be around their behaviour, I'm the one who has to remove myself from the situation. Of course, it is worth it to bring up the subject, to have the frank discussion, if there's a possibility that something might change from that. In my experience, though, that usually doesn't help one bit.

sorry to be so negative, but it seems to me like you've got to think in terms of self preservation. you have to take care of your needs and happiness, and that of your family above and beyond all else. I like the idea of seeking assistance from a school councillor or someone in a similar position. It would be nice if there were an outside agency that could step in, without going completely protectionist and taking the kid and dog away. Not sure if that can happen in the states or not. Or maybe, it would be a good idea if it were short term.

You've proven to be a really good friend, Autumn. Friendship goes two ways and, unless there's much more to this than we've heard, this situation is pretty one-way. Whatever you do next, try to be ready for the possibility that the friendship may never be the same (and I'd hate for it to stay the same anyway, you should not be a doormat for anyone!!), and may not survive.

Good luck and bright blessings to you!!

Namaste,
~T~

[AutumnBreez]

I feel like crying reading your responses. Thank you for caring so much! Right before she showed I came up to read what you ladies had in mind for ideas. Well, I stuck with my plan of needing space and told her that it was a long and sucky week and was exhausted. I had all the meds, clothes, all belongings ready in front room. Told her I am tired and not feeling well when she noticed I was quiet and not my talkative self. Kids have school tomorrow and I needed to get rested. She had asked if I had got to ride this week...I did say " how could I?"
(if you ladies don't know already, I live abroad currently)
I said..." My husband is out of country in ickystan place (afganistan), you are off to another country to see your man in Jordan "(a U.S.Marine) my friend is a local here- " If something were to happen to me on the road who is going to take care of my kids, and your child?" I was the only one here for them." Her daughter is just beginning to speak/learn English so had some language barriers from time to time, I don't speak any greek. Just a couple of words.
So you know, the boyfriend is not bad at all, he was one of our Marines here at this post and he is good for her, but she tends to be impatient and wants the same out of him that she would give to him, sooner then the later. She tends to be on the needy side. Wants him to show his love more, not just say it, is what I hear.

I will prepare for next visit speech, do best when I have time to think.
Again, thanks for the help, knew I could count you all for good advice

[KSH]

She puts her dogs nose in the urine and gives a smack on the hind legs after the accident and puts her out. I never did this with mine to train her.

This is an area that you can address, without completely treading on dangerous territory.

Tell her that you read somewhere that swatting a dog with a piece of paper, is 100 times better, because then the dog does not come to fear your hand, but the paper instead.

Start there. Maybe she will see how slapping her kid is like slapping the dog... and stop it all together?


Something I have learned in life... if you have a *friend* who's behavior you simply cannot tolerate... or you don't understand how they manage their life... then it's best to cut ties with that friend.

[Veronica]

And you can tell it her that it doesn't do any good to punish the dog, unless caught in the act.

V.

[madisongrrl]

Tell her that you read somewhere that swatting a dog with a piece of paper, is 100 times better, because then the dog does not come to fear your hand, but the paper instead.

Ummm....Dogs don't necessarily discriminate between getting hit with a paper or a human hand. Dogs are fight/flight animals who view the would as safe or dangerous. If the human hits/hurts the dog in anyway, then the human will be viewed as an unsafe entity.

Dogs who are punished during potty training
1. Don't ask their humans to "go outside" - humans are unsafe
2. learn to urinate in the absence of their owner - because punishment doesn't teach a dog to potty outside.
3. When human comes home, dog "looks guilty" so human punishes...in fact dogs are not "guilty" (dogs aren't cognitively capabile of having morals - they simply do what works)....dogs have learned that urine + arrival of human = punishment/harsh tones. The dog will act submissively (a gesture that is meant to "reduce aggression") because the human unknowingly conditioned this response.

Potty training is accomplished through management and reinforcement - period. There is so much current literature on this topic that it is ridiculous in this day and age people are still punishing their dogs during potty training. The simple fact is that this lady is punishing her dog and the dog is still "going" inside the house - so what that should tell her is that her approach isn't working......

The most benevolent way to approach people like this is to ask "How is that working for you?" - because usually its not working so great....then you can tell them how you would approach this problem and give the reasoning behind your suggestions....

2 cents from a canine behaviorist-in-training