OT - Politics, Religion... the taboos

[spazzdog]

I know this is WAY off topic of cycling... and I don't open this discussion to offend. We played a bit with the politics of the current war (Irac) in another thread.

I broach this topic because I so respect the views of all of you.

I've just watched the Showtime special "Our Fathers" about the Catholic pedophilia scandal. Let me preface with I am not Catholic. My partner is. I live in the Boston area.

I am gay.

The sociatal backlash has been on homosexuality in the priesthood. My issue is pedophilia and homosexuality are two very distinct issues. A homosexual is not a pedophile. A pedophile is not a homosexual. Statisticly most pedophiles are straight men.

As a "homosexual", I would never, have never wanted, needed, lusted after a child, nor has anyone I know in the gay community, male or female.

Y'all kinda know me. I don't start these "serious" topics on a whim.

What are your views? There are lots of moms here... I assume a certain percentage of Catholics... not that I believe pedophilia is restricted to the Catholic religion.

Victims, friends of victims, how far do the circles of this particular pebble flow?

spazz

[Justina]

Hey umm ... I'm not catholic either, in fact I'm not anything but a heterosexual? woman with a fairly strong sex drive. My theory on the catholic pedophiles is that since their religious doctrine denies them an outlet for their normal human sexuality that they kinda just snap and um... Well... kids are available, easy to intimidate or how ever they manipulate them???? It would be interesting to know "if " were the preists allowed openly to express their normal sexuality would the rate of child molestation go down? They are human beings with all the same weakness after all . There will always be perverts where ever there are kids. ( sad but true )I am fairly sure that if you locked me up in a female prison for the rest of my life or for that matter a good long while ( whatever that is LOL ) I would probably get real interested in the ladies. like I said I have a fairly strong sex drive ( like most men Hmmmm? ) Masurbation is fun but does lack a critical element of human contact.....P.S call me liberal " GASP! but I don't have a problem with homosexuality in fact I think It might just be a normal expression of one persons love and attraction to another.Pedophilia on the other hand is not cosentual sex, it is molestation and rape (big diffrence.)

[RoadRaven]

Mum here - age range currently 7yrs - 17 yrs

There is no way I have ever associated homosexuality and paedophilia as intrinsically linked

My teenagers have brought home gay teenage friends of both genders and at no time have I considered my younger children as being in any "danger" despite numerous rough-housing games

Most of my kids have also had a gay teacher at some time or other (and that is just the teachers I have known about) and at no time have I been concerned or "afraid" for their safety... in fact, one of the teachers was the most creative and in tune with kids that they have ever had!

People who get the two "issues" or "ways of being" confused are archaic dinosaurs who cannot admit to themselves that there are many ways of being human, and the safety of our children comes down to morals and mental health and any link to gender preference is purely coincidental.

Spazz, I know you can't 'catch' gayness, can't 'make' or 'turn' someone gay...
THEY (who make such ill-informed, judegmental and innaccurate statements) are dinosaurs, are blind, are crazy, and should shut their mouths REAL tight.

I don't trust any religion that disempowers a minority, and the history of Catholisicism is not a healthy one regarding women or the 'uneducated'. I believe the fault lies with the fear of sexuality within the hierarchy of the church. Gayness or non-gayness is completely irrelevant to the issue of someone being a paedophile.

[Irulan]

The father of my son's best friend went and laid himself in front of a train the day the local preist molestation scandal broke in the newspaper. He was a victim as were many men in his circle. His wife is a very brave woman: she has been very forthcoming and public about her husbands abuse and the lack of accountability by the church. She was on Macniel/Lehrer a few months ago, anyone catch it? ( one of those PBS news shows) She is one of the main plaintiffs in the lawsuit against the diocese, which of course has declared bankrupcy.

Me - angry about the continutal assosciation between pedophiles and gayness which is just wrong. Spokane is the home of the local mayorial scandal which doesn't help. It is good to see that people are seperating the sexualtiy from the abuse of power issues. While I am not gay, having being raised by two closeed until I was almost an adult gay people gives me a comfrotableness with it that I think some people lack. There were problems in my home but it was due to bad behavior and not inherent sexuality of my parnets.

more later, have to go rafting.

a good book on abuse of power in the church is called The God Game.

[Trek420]

I didn't see or TIVO the film. Struck a nerve, Sapzz?

$0.50 tour of me, Gay and out forever - over 30 years, no kids that I know of, 2 neices and 1 nephew all grown, Jewish but not observant and some of my best friends and all of my ex'es are Catholic. Hmmmm.

I am sick of generalizations like blaming societies ills on "drug addicts, accordion players, and homosexuals..." but I think that most people "get it" today that child molesters and LGBT people are totally different.

In todays political environment there are those who use fear based arguments "the gays and lesbians are coming, lock up the women and children, protect your marriage!" and I'm just not gonna go there about that.

Just speaking personaly gimme a break. I like kids and kids like me but I simply can't imagine any sexual interest in a child and more important I think there is a special place in hell for anyone who'd hurt a child.

Don't get me started...I think I'd better go for a bike ride now.

[spazzdog]

Thanks for all the input.

I know films are films, i.e. stuff gets "dramatized" or "sensationalized", but this film did strike a chord. Living here outside Boston I was inundated with the news accounts and then watching this film... it's all so sad.

I didn't reference my own sexual orientation for any reason other than to point out that, for me, hearing the uneducated or ill informed blame the abuse on "gay" priests made me nuts. These men weren't gay - they were/are predators. They could've had relations with persons their own age had they so chosen.

The Vatican could've handled the entire thing differently...

And of course, in my ideal little world, there is no war or hunger

Let's use this thread for those taboo subjects one doesn't discuss over dinner... I am interested in and value your input. And thanks to Admin for allowing this thread to keep flying.

spazz

[singletrackmind]

Me? I don't believe in any god. I'm 37 and stay at home with my 2 year old boy and 9 and 12 year old step-daughters. I'm an artistic, straight, introverted, boring mid-american woman and I miss mom's homemade macaroni and cheese and buttermilk pancakes which I make but never turn out as good.

Gay and straight seem the exact same to me, just the preference in opposite vs. same sex is the difference. If I am incorrect in this someone please tell me and give me reasons, thoughts and ideas as to why so I can ponder. I would never think of one or the other to be more likely to be pedophiliacs individually. As a whole, it seems there would be more straight pedophiles based sheerly on number.

I sure wish people would worry about more important things than which consenting adult enjoys the companionship of which other consenting adult.

I cannot believe priests could find any right in using any child in a sexual manner. They certainly have the opportunity put before them as authoritarian figures to these boys but how can they commit such heinous acts?? I can see how a boy would feel they had to go along with what these people who they've been taught to revere wish of them-but how can a priest abuse his power in this manner above all??? I was about to ask if they really believe they are not committing a gay act because of the age of their same-sex partners but I don't want any of you to think I think pedophilia is a gay act because IT IS NOT!! Yes, some changes do need to be made in the chuch so that priests can find their adult pleasures-with ADULTS!! That or castrate them, though my humpy little boy dog doesn't seem to notice a lack of testicles in the slightest so I don't know if this works or not.

My step-daughter's 3rd grade teacher is gay and the best teacher she's had thus far. He's gifted with his kids and has been recognized by the state for his good work. I would be honored to have him teach my son as well-he's quite good at it. His ability has nothing to do with his orientation as is true of people straight and gay world over.

[roughingit]

I'm also a straight athiest, but I frequent a homesteading forum with many *very* religious folk on it. Some of these people also seem to share the archiac view of that video. Then again, it may just seem that way because they spend so much time preaching about how being gay in a SIN (their caps lol). Man, I gotta feel for the gay and bi people on that board with such narrow-mindedness afoot there!

I don't think the priests are using these children because they are gay, I think it is just a power trip, same as rape with adults. They use children because they don't struggle and are easier to brainwash.

[LBTC]

I was raised catholic. I'll be recovering for the rest of my life! heh

Some of the priests were stern, some caring, some scary, some creepy, some seemed invicible....I can see how a kid from yesteryear could be awed enough by the priest and all he symbolized to actually feel special because of the priests sickening advances....but that's how these things work. they are complicated, disgusting, horrific acts.

The thought that a homosexual man is more likely to be a pedofile is beyond any logic that a sane human being could use.

The catholic rule of celibacy is matched in some other religions as well, Even a yogi can choose to become celibate in order to harness the energy of his or her sexuality into transcendant inner peace. However, in catholicisim it has always appeared to be (I haven't been through the training, so this is an assumption) simply a matter of denial. An unenlightened sacrifice does not necessarily make a soul more perfect....if the person has no way to deal with the denial, no outlet of any kind, the mind can twist it into something very sick. DH just had a great idea....they could take all these celibate priests, and make a super fast catholic cycling team! All that pent up sexual energy would make them smoking fast!!

It's a sick world we live in. some of the creatures in it are sicker than others. In an ideal world, the organizations we are part of would provide us all with the necessary guidance to be perfect human beings in whatever circumstances we find ourselves.

Darnit, though, they don't!!

Peace and love to all of you,
Namaste,
~T~

[Irulan]

OK, spent a day paddle rafting and I'm back.... hacked that other post out way to early in the am yesterday.

I think that some church's unwillingness to allow non-celibate behaviors, or to not allow women to participate comes goes very far back to the origins of some religions. The point was made about celibacy of a way concentraing spritual power,which is a universal practice. However in this day and age I think that is misplaced for some religions. The history of the priesthood needs to be looked at in a historical context too : both in the how the priest hood was used to replace other, older religious forms, and how it was taught that it is only through a priest that you can have access to God. Talk about a set up for power abuse!!!
The church's documented attempts at covering up preist abuse is evil of the highest kind IMO.

[susan.wells]

My issue is pedophilia and homosexuality are two very distinct issues. A homosexual is not a pedophile. A pedophile is not a homosexual. Statisticly most pedophiles are straight men.

This issue really touches home. My oldest son is homosexual and I absolutely detest when people somehow connect homosexuality with pedophilia. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

[RoadRaven]

I was raised catholic. I'll be recovering for the rest of my life! heh
~T~

LOL, this reminded me of a Billy Connelly show, he said " I went to a Catholic School - I majored in guilt"

Seriously though. Its not just priests who are guilty of this - It happens with people in a position of power... school teachers, cub scout leaders, doctorsetc... They may or may not be gay, but they do have issues with power and they do prey on the vulnerable.

Sometimes the vulnerable are young children, sometimes they are teenagers, sometimes they are the elderly and sometimes they are women.

Too often, rape or other sexual abuse is about power and control, not about sex... and like we all agree, sexual preference or tendancies has little to do with breaking moral, ethical or legal laws.

I am a survivor of rape (note - survivor, not victim) and if anyone did something remotely similar to one of my children, I am sure my response would be extreme, even if I had to bide my time.

[Trek420]

RoadRaven "Its not just priests who are guilty of this - It happens with people in a position of power... school teachers, cub scout leaders, doctorsetc... They may or may not be gay, but they do have issues with power and they do prey on the vulnerable."

yep yep, in the martial art I do, the first teacher I had and I trained with him from about 1979-83. I got too busy with college and stopped training for a couple years then came back to training, and he was gone, his assistant instructors headed the school.

Wha' happened?

It had been found due to some brave kids coming forward that he'd been abusing kids in the kids classes (just the girls). this was found out to be true and he was confronted and in an unprecedented move the head of our style stripped him of rank and forbade him to even train! I'm sure it was heart-wrenching for Saito Sensei because this guy was the favorite student.

But it had to be done and in the end he did the right thing.

Occaisionaly we hear rumor that he's somewhere leading a class or trying to train. But always seems like rumor. Recently he did show up at a dojo (school) in CA and was quickly recognised "oh, you. We've heard about you" and was quickly and simply presented with a letter, aparently there is a formal letter that he can not train anywhere ever again.

In a way I feel sorry for the guy, such a waste of talent. He was my teacher after all. Supremely talented, gifted but at minimum he's deeply flawed and possibly downright evil. I'm sure he knows that if not for that he'd be a master instructor by this time. Oh well.

[Irulan]

In a way I feel sorry for the guy, such a waste of talent. He was my teacher after all. Supremely talented, gifted but at minimum he's deeply flawed and possibly downright evil. I'm sure he knows that if not for that he'd be a master instructor by this time. Oh well.

I would never, ever feel sorry for someone who makes a choice to use their power/position inappropriately no matter how much supposed "talent" is being thrown away. How many abusers have had people make concessions because they were only caught once, they were an asset to the business or community in other ways, or they had a lapse in judgement or any of 10000 other excuses that charismatic abusers get away with. He made the decision to do the things he did, no one forced him or coerced him, unlike his victims.

Irulan

[Trek420]

poor choice of words on my part...First of all I've never understood why no legal action was not taken at the time, why he's not in jail .... or worse. As far as I know nobody sued, prosecuted...

I wasn't around the school when the "fit hit the shan" but I don't think there is a statute of limitations on this heinious (sp?) crime and even if there is it would not have been passed then.

The fact that it's around a martial art is most deeply deeply disturbing to me. that's the whole thing with power and the implication to a kid ... I'm surprised the guy is still on the planet.

and no I don't think pedophiles could ever ever change, rehabilitate whatever you want to call it, some people just take up space and oxygen on the planet that could better be used by others or ferns or whatever.