Ladies, women, girls....

[velogirl]

So in the knowledge that our language is patriarchal in nature, what would you call a female athlete? Or someone competing against the big boys?

Simply put, I would call her an athlete!

Women have a real challenge calling themselves athletes, especially women who are more recreational in their pursuits.

[East Hill]

It's odd how many people 'just don't get it'...most women don't want to be called 'chick', 'babe', 'hon', 'girl', etc., by anyone with whom they are not intimate.

It's one thing for my husband to call me 'babe', it's another for a man on the street to do so. The implication is that the man on the street feels it's acceptable to call me 'babe', because all I represent to him is 'female' and with luck, 'available'.

However:

Woman/Women, followed by a collective 'Ladies' (rather than 'girls', or 'chicks' or 'gals').

YMMV .

East Hill

[DirtDiva]

How would I know? Noone ever calls me a lady...

As for 18 year-olds calling themselves girls, that probably has a lot more to do with them not quite feeling like grown-ups yet than anything.

[Mr. Bloom]

I've not been able to read all posts as this thread took off, but I do have one question:

I see the phrase "Thanks Ladies" on this forum alot. Does anyone receive this offensively?

It is a sincere question from a man who typically refers to women as "women" not ladies...but the phrase "Thanks Ladies" seems to be a form of slang that doesn't seem offensive and seems appropriate in the right context.

[margo49]

Over the years I have had lots of young people working with me for a while on their travels. Most (Europeans, Brits, North Americans, Colonials) were quite happy to call me by my name. But the Japanese and Koreans used to bow! Very formally on entering and leaving and a feet-at-attention plus head-nod during the day after getting a task or a reply to a question. Nothing I said made any difference.
I had a Turkish (agricultural engineering) student who always called me "Ma'am".

Couldn't get enough of it!

I prefer to introduce myself first: "margo from Kinneret" (because my family name is foreign and I don't like to use the SO's). Then I proceed over-polite, tightly structured and to-the-point. Things degenerate naturally from there.

If I encounter a damsel in distress I usually use Dear or Sweetie .
For a child I call them "Chick" (as in baby bird).
Men in distress I never aproach unless they are bleeding or unconscious or (preferably) both and I'm the only person around.

[East Hill]

I've not been able to read all posts as this thread took off, but I do have one question:

I see the phrase "Thanks Ladies" on this forum alot. Does anyone receive this offensively?

It is a sincere question from a man who typically refers to women as "women" not ladies...but the phrase "Thanks Ladies" seems to be a form of slang that doesn't seem offensive and seems appropriate in the right context.

The collective noun of "Ladies" is much less offensive than 'Girls', 'Babes', 'Chicks', etc.

It's also more polite than 'Thanks, Gals', which would be the 'Thanks, Guys' equivalent (because the equivalent of 'Thanks Ladies = Thanks Gentlemen).

East Hill

[Zen]

The collective noun of "Ladies" is much less offensive than 'Girls', 'Babes', 'Chicks', etc.

The collective noun of 'ladies' seems more suited to those women with whom you are acquainted. perhaps a smaller group as well.
Not at all offensive when used in a formal sense.

[lph]

Actually, reconsidering I see there's nothing at all wrong with the terms "ladies" or "girls" or whatever, it's just that sometimes people use them in strange settings. Let's see if I can doodle this out.

Women are often referred to as, well, women, rather than just *people*. Example: yesterdays paper had a headline that went "women start up internet business" (or something of the sort). The article was not about women in general tending to start up net businesses, but about two specific women who had quit their jobs and done so. The headline would never have read "Men start up net business". Men are default, women are pointed out as different.

Especially in a professional setting, making a point out of somebody being a woman is just unnecessary. And can easily make her feel like an outsider. Calling a woman a lady or a girl or whatever might be appropriate, depending on the setting, but a lot of the time it's just unnecessary. It both points out that hey, everybody, this is a woman! and gives her certain characteristics. If that's what you *mean* to say, by all means do so.

On this forum we're obviously all women (give or take so thanking the "girls" or "ladies" isn't strange. And "thanks, women" just sounds strange. On an all-men forum I might say "thanks, gentlemen!". Though I probably would stick to "thanks, everybody".

[Kimmyt]

there are hot-button words for every race and gender and character of person out there, it just gets so hard to keep track and sometimes when you don't mean a word badly it may have that effect.

K.

[margo49]

I'm from the 70's!
I love it when I find or am told *another* word, phrase, concept, context,etc to be "over-sensitive" about.

Glory days of late nights in non-smoky rooms arguing about this kind of thing. Like the Men on TE thread.

[Trek420]

What was that musical? Guys 'N Dolls? Maybe we should start calling each other Doll!!

JUST KIDDING!!!

or South Pacific? "What ain't we got? we ain't got Dames"

As for me, I prefer the term "pushy broad" for myself

It's all context, the situation, your perception, and speakers intent and history. Language is fascinating that way. Seriously the child-like terms like "girl" while mostly well meant can have other meaning.

For example this being an international board some might not know that in the States it was quite common and may still be in some areas for men of color especially black men would never be addressed as "men" but always called "boy" or "boys".

I'm honestly unsure if it was the same term and intent for "girl"

I watched an athlete being interviewed about his team and their being especially supportive, the interviewer said something like "They're your boys" I'm sure she meant well as in "they backed you up well, you work together as a team" but you could see it still today as the athlete looked momentarily seriously offended then recovered on screen "ok. let's let it go and laugh. Let's move on, I'm sure she'll get heck from the producers".

But speaking personally I don't much mind; girl, lady, dame, grrl whatever you call me.. though I may bristle at the "honey, sweetie, dear..." unless you actualy are my "honey, sweetie or dear" or you are a truck stop waitress in which case there better be coffee and pie involved.

[lyca]

or you are a truck stop waitress in which case there better be coffee and pie involved.

Mmmmmm....pie...........

[Starfish]

It's all context, the situation, your perception, and speakers intent and history. Language is fascinating that way.

Well, this is so true. As well as many of the other recent comments on this thread about the difference between a SO calling me something, vs a man on the street calling me the same thing. Or TE women calling me girl, chick, or whatever, and a condescending sales lady, etc. AAAhhh...I see I automatically say sales lady, when I think she will condescend to me...vs when I'm referring to a saleswoman, which I intend more respectfully. I did that automatically, without thinking, just as I was writing this post!

As I think about it, even the smallest amount of positive relationship with someone can change my whole way of receiving something. For instance, don't care for it when a man comes up and says "Hi Ladies!" Although, am I actually offended? No...depending on how he says it and his intent. I just don't love it.

On the other hand, if a woman comes up and says the same thing, I don't love it, but I really could not care less. Oddly enough, I realize if Mr. Silver says it, I still don't love it, but I really don't care at all, because I've had positive experiences with communicating with him on the boards and in PMs (and Silver, to be clear, about the thing with his folks).

Another for instance: If I get the idea that a guy is saying Ladies because he is just not sure, and is trying to be a good guy, then great. If I get the idea that a guy is trying to actually mean something about what standards of behavior that is supposed to imply about me, then forget it. Once a guy decides I'm a lady, based on behavior, then the next I know, I'll be falling off the pedastal, and that can be a long fall. I don't belong up there. Or, maybe I do, but not because I never swear in public, or whatever he thinks makes me a lady.

Oh, and on another note, and someone already mentioned this in general: WHY, O WHY, do some people say "Woman Doctor" or "Woman Lawyer"...This might be my all time most hated thing. You don't hear "Man Doctor" etc.

One final note: I remember a gazillion years ago in college, I was trying to persuade my old B-17 pilot dad that calling women "broads" was not respectful. I remember saying: Dad, how would you like it if some guy was calling me a broad!?! With a puzzled look on his face, he just said, "Well, if he was saying you're a good looking broad, why would I mind that?"

[DDH]

Man, I'm just in trouble all the way around. I read through this post and I use just about all these terms depending on the situation.

I think a lot of it depends on tone, and the situations you encounter.

I say "thanks hun" to the cashier when I check out.
I say "hey what ya guys doing later" when talking to my girl friends.
I say "yes Ma'am" in many situations.
I say "hey you girls ever?" when asking a question.

I guess my language is just all over the place. I say Ya'll too, for a lot of things and don't use gender at all.
Some english teacher would just cringe when talking to me I guess. LOL

[boy in a kilt]

I know this is a subject of potential consternation for women. Since it's so context-driven and tact is a new concept for me, I've come up with a few hard and fast rules.

When I'm discussing a woman with my wife, we have our own protocols.

Women from the south and certain black women are ma'am.

If I am speaking to a group of women, they are y'all.

If I'm speaking to a woman I don't know, or who doesn't meet any of the above criteria, I avoid the issue entirely. I find "thank you" works just as well as "Thank you ma'am."