Ladies, women, girls....

[LBTC]

Well, I guess I'm with Kimmy and am very good at using the wrong words inadvertently. In the situation KG described, I would probably have used the word girl more than anything. I can picture myself shouting encouragement in the form of go, girl, go. But when talking about them, I would more likely be saying "look at her go" "she looks strong" "she's reeling him in" "isn't she in the lead?" etc. Yes, it seems I use more pronouns than nouns. Perhaps I am instinctively avoiding the whole dilemma of woman vs lady, neither of which I like the sounds of. Oh, yes, I have definitely been known to use the words, chick, dudette, chica and babe to describe women, specifically athletes that I see or know, but generally I keep these terms close - talking with DH, or close girlfriends.

Hugs and butterflies,
~T~

[PscyclePath]

From the old-school Southern male perspective, I was taught, and still believe that all adult females are to be considered "ladies" until their behavior clearly demonstrates otherwise. And even then, you give them the benefit of doubt.

Foreign languages have their own nuances, too... I remember that in German, the proper reference is Frau (plural Frauen) or Fraulein, occasionally Dame or Damen (plural). (hint, the feminine restroom is labelled Damen, good for a joke or two with the new guys who can't tell the difference betwen "da Men" and "Herren" (which is how the little boys' room is labeled, btw.) but that's a whole 'nother story.) Using the term for female, weib, or weibliche, is considered derogatory in polite circles, and is usually refereing to livestock.

But then again in gender non-specific circles, I confess that I'm one of those who typically refers to everyone as "guys," regardless of age or gender.

Tom

[lph]

Oh my, I didn't mean to imply that I was offended by someone here saying "Go, girl!"

Among friends (you're all friends ) it's fine, but precisely because it does imply familiarity I don't appreciate it in a work setting with someone I'm NOT "familiar" with.

But I think actually "girl" is used more in Norway (in Norwegian of course...) than in the States. Sports journalists are known for calling female athletes "girls", "the girls team" when they would never call the male ones "boys".

And I completely agree with whoever said that it shouldn't have to be a compliment that one looks younger than one is. I mean, you should be gracious and accept a compliment as it's meant anyway, but I'd prefer to just be able to be a girl, a young woman, a woman and then an old woman without any negative associations connected to the terms.

PS. So to the old-school gentlemen who instead of asking my age say "well, one should never ask a lady her age..." I just go "It's ok, I'm no lady, and I'm 38."

[Zen]

I thought we crashed the board, Starfish

[teigyr]

I despise being called "lady" because it's my feeling that it is a class distinction and a role as opposed to merely being my gender. I tend to dislike classification anyway unless someone has to refer to someone as one gender or another. There's no good way to do it and I've been guilty of the "guys" also.

As far as "go girl" or chick or anything, it's all in intent. If one of you said that, I would have no problem. If it was meant in a bad way (ie said probably from a male and I got the impression that it meant I was less of a person), I'd be irked.

So if someone such as a waiter approaches a table with women or men or mixed genders, how would one address the group?

I've been known to say things like "you two" if it's a group of two people. That sounds bad also though.

I'm strange though, I rarely refer to DH as my husband. He has a name, I prefer to use that because he's his own person and I don't like putting him into a category of husband. I have to do it a lot though or I'd say his name and people would say "who's that" so I'm working around that one.

What gets me are people who ask questions that don't directly ask the question. I do aircraft weight and balance. I have agents call me to ask if the plane has "weight and balance". What they mean is "are there any restrictions?" or "how many standbys can I clear?". I really try to contain myself from going off on them and saying EVERY flight has weight and EVERY flight has balance. Get to the point and ask what it is you need to know. Grrrr. I'm cranky that way.

[velogirl]

I (obviously) take no offense at being called a "girl." LOL

When I started Velo Girls, I had no idea that the term "girl" was considered derogatory by many women a generation or two older than I am, until I read a blog entry written by one of our members about her first exposure to the club. I simply found an available URL and VeloGirls.com has a much better ring than VeloMiddleAgedWomen.com!

Seriously, to me, the term velogirls implies a sisterhood/community of healthy, strong, independent bicycle-riding women. Rather than a slight, we're laughing in the face of those who would oppress us (namely, male-oriented cycling clubs). And the "boys" know that if they want to participate in our activities/rides, they have to play by our rules.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now, more than anything, I hate being addressed as ma'am! My grandmother was a ma'am. My mother was a ma'am. I'm not old enough yet to be a ma'am, except when being addressed by a charming southern gentleman.

[teigyr]

Seriously, to me, the term velogirls implies a sisterhood/community of healthy, strong, independent bicycle-riding women. Rather than a slight, we're laughing in the face of those who would oppress us (namely, male-oriented cycling clubs). And the "boys" know that if they want to participate in our activities/rides, they have to play by our rules.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now, more than anything, I hate being addressed as ma'am! My grandmother was a ma'am. My mother was a ma'am. I'm not old enough yet to be a ma'am, except when being addressed by a charming southern gentleman.

Exactly. I became a ma'am I guess...don't remember the first time but

Anyway, it is like racial groups calling themselves things that nobody else would be allowed to call them? If that makes sense, it's putting it out there and WE can say things but we'd bristle if other people called us that. And nothing wrong with girls/boys. I often joke about (as I am clumsily trying to swim) talking about swimming in the lane with the big boys and big girls. It's just silliness. Then again, I'm not calling them boys and girls specifically...ok, my brain is now exploding.

And I do think the boys are starting to learn that we're pretty darned strong when we want to be

[smilingcat]

It is bit strange to think of female athlete as ladies. To me, it conjurs up an image of victorian dressed women with their white gloves and hat playing badmitton (sp) or other "lawn sport" of sort. Hardly the tank top, short-short with cleated shoes of any kind.

referring to one another as girls is okay with me AS LONG AS it is amongst women of my age or there abouts. If I refer to a younger adult women as a girl, I think that's condesending. and if I say that to women who are much older than me, I don't think I'm showing my proper respect to them. It's just me.

And I do know that to younger women, calling one another as "guys" seem perfectly normal. They don't even think about it. Then again language has a life and it changes with time. I can't imagine what life would be like if we all spoke Elizabethan English or English language from Sir William Spencer's or from Chaucer's period. Try reading "The Shepard's Calendar", "Fairy Queen" or" Canterbury Tale" or even "Midsummer Nights Dream" as it was written and you would go

When did we stop saying "I shall..." and became "I will ..." My English teacher beat that into me years and years ago "never say I will. Proper usage is 'I shall...' ".

And when did two or more people become two or more persons as if we don't know the term people?

Likewise when did actress become actors?

Then again I'm not a staunch language conservative like William Safire who is offemded more times than not.

yes ladies and men just sound all wrong.

smilingcat

[mimitabby]

.

What gets me are people who ask questions that don't directly ask the question. I do aircraft weight and balance. I have agents call me to ask if the plane has "weight and balance". What they mean is "are there any restrictions?" or "how many standbys can I clear?". I really try to contain myself from going off on them and saying EVERY flight has weight and EVERY flight has balance. Get to the point and ask what it is you need to know. Grrrr. I'm cranky that way.

yeah, we have this airplane, and it has no weight at all! we can sell it for big bucks!! but... is it balanced????

[AllezGirl]

Seriously...this happened a few times when I wore my hair very short (I'm also very tall).

Since then, I've lowered my standards ...call me whatever you like as long as it has a female connotation.

Including "b1tch"...I wear that label with pride.