Vino positive!!!

[BadgerGirl]

I love Contador, too, but remember he was already implicated in the Operacion Puerto scandal. I have no illusions that any of them are clean.

I hate to condemn all cycling athletes because of a few cheaters. Just like not everyone on the street I deal with is a criminal. It is flawed to think like that. If you read several articles about Operation Puerto, you will see that the investigators rushed to conclusions about riders possibly involved in it. Contador was one of the riders the investigations committee said they rushed to judgement and cleared him. Does that mean he is not doping, no. Does that mean he is doping, no. Think and say what you want because that is just my opinion.

[Eden]

Any molecular biologists out there? I was just thinking about the flow cytometry test and with the way it is done I was wondering if a high white count or the presence of antibiotics could yield a false positive. I have heard that Vinokurov's knee is infected.

[RoadRaven]

Gutted? Yes

Disappointed? Yes

But wait... what happened to innnocent til proven guilty
He gets a second chance in case the lab f'ed up

He's requested the second test... shouldn't the condemnations wait until that is announced positive?

(And in the meantime all wish fervently that its all just a BIG mistake)


Oh, and can anyone answer Eden's question about the possibility of an infected knee affecting his blood chemistry?

[alpinerabbit]

Any molecular biologists out there? I was just thinking about the flow cytometry test and with the way it is done I was wondering if a high white count or the presence of antibiotics could yield a false positive. I have heard that Vinokurov's knee is infected.

Show me a description of the test and I'll try and find out. I am a molecular biologist but have not seen articles on the method.

It is unimaginable how they can do this day after day. They did it in 1903 without doping, if a rider has any moral standards and a true love of the sport for sports sake they wouldn't do it. I just don't get it, they're not exactly making pro football salaries.

a) in 1903 they already knew how to use alcohol, cocaine, even strychnine.

b) because they are not making enough money in a couple years to retire for the rest of their lives, they are desperate for wins.

Originally Posted by HappyAnika
I should add that I think Floyd was framed simply because he's an American.

I posted something awhile back (and it ticked someone off) that said "I blame the French"
I don't entirely blame the French on this one.

Yeah it ticks me off too. Yes the lab screws up, others do too, but come effin' on.... JUST because he was an American? V is Kazakh, Chicken is danish, and Contador is spanish. So frame them all so a French guy can win....?

Doping is in this sport like a cancer and it has been for the past 100 years.....



Edit.

I checked out the method.

Briefly, the test uses a panel of antibodies against many (>10) red blood cell (RBC) antigens. When any of these antibodies reacts with the RBC antigens ..... the idea is that the presence of the RBC antigens varies in any population of humans and thus a homologous transfusion can be detected in a person receiving one unit of blood

So the antibodies are specific for red blood cells. white blood cells due to infection would not skew the result and frankly, if his infection was that strong, he would not be winning time trials. Same for Antibiotics. They don't react with the antibodies in question.
Could V claim chimaerism like Tyler H.? Apparently, one out of 8000 normal people and 8% of twins are chimeric. But this is something that every rider could have been tested for on his own free will after the H. case.

[bikerchick68]

WOW... that article with Boonen is something else... he throws down Rasmussen as well... said he believes Rasmussen is doped too...

yeah, Boonen's quotes are BEYOND PO'd...

[alpinerabbit]

yeah, Boonen's quotes are BEYOND PO'd...

He'll shut up when he's caught too.

I don't believe he's clean either, none of Quickstep, which used to be Mapei, and they've found incriminating evidence from the Mapei era.

[smilingcat]

Witl all the bad news, and hoping its just a bad nightmare, I'm taking a break and taking a snooze.

Smilingcat

[jeannierides]

SmilingCat, thanks for the laugh. I needed it!

[Eden]

Could V claim chimaerism like Tyler H.? Apparently, one out of 8000 normal people and 8% of twins are chimeric. But this is something that every rider could have been tested for on his own free will after the H. case.

If he makes that claim then IMO it would be very stupid - at least some of his tests should have detected something wrong, not just one. It would make more sense to be like Lance, don't try to make up crazy excuses, keep your cool, keep quiet and wait for the B sample. If he knows the B sample will yield the same results he should just out with it and confess.

[Zen]

b) because they are not making enough money in a couple years to retire for the rest of their lives, they are desperate for wins.

I doubt even Lance made enough money from cycling to retire on tour/cycling winnings. Even if a rider is well known they'd still have to do endorsements, clothing or sell some type of coaching program to make a living.

[Kalidurga]

The Jambon Report for Stage 16 over at dailypeloton.com is a good one. Locutus makes a good case for all of us fans to continue supporting cycling as a sport, despite the crap that's happened in the last two Tours.

[Starfish]

So what do you all think of Boonen's suggestion that dopers get a lifetime ban?

[Kalidurga]

So what do you all think of Boonen's suggestion that dopers get a lifetime ban?

Phil Ligget's also suggested that in the past. I think that if they were to go to such an extreme, they'd darned well better get some more reliable test protocols in place. I think the idea of permanently banning someone when there's any question of their innocence would not be right.

[Zen]

So what do you all think of Boonen's suggestion that dopers get a lifetime ban?

That's a tough one and everyone is going to answer using their own values/morals/justice scale.

[edit- After reading Tam's post I want to preface my answer by saying it takes place in fantasy land and there's no doubt about the validity of lab results]

Part of me wants to say that everyone deserves a second chance and there was pressure from someone in team management to dope. They didn't go to the drug store and ask for a bottle of EPO.

Then there's the part of me that channels Nancy Reagan and says 'just say no". They weren't tied up and injected.

Maybe a "two strikes" rule.

[onimity]

So what do you all think of Boonen's suggestion that dopers get a lifetime ban?

I think it's over the top. I think it's *all* over the top, frankly.

I can't imagine having a blood transfusion or taking substances that could kill me to enhance my athletic performance. It just doesn't matter that much to me; I exercise for fun and to be more fit, not to be better than anyone else.

For athletes that are competitive, especially at top levels, any advantage that may increase performance is irresistible to many. I don't think it is unique to cycling, I don't think it's anything new, and I don't think that it's ever going to change, the tactics will just change as existing tactics are discovered/detected.

I have to say that I'm more than a little horrified to see the ends these guys will go to for a small performance increase, and I'm really irritated with the athletes that act horrified at the suggestion of doping when their own records/histories are more than a bit suspect. A good number are probably just ahead of the curve and using a tactic that is not yet on the radar of the people testing.

The near-hysteria over doping in cycling is really interesting to me, because we happily ignore the same epidemic in other sports, and it really isn't anything new. The problem IMO is that we as a society increasingly hold athletes in such high regard, we idolize them and look to them as role models rather than enjoying the sport for what it is, and when we discover that they are not, in fact, super-human, we shun them and discredit their every accomplishment as tainted. We want an exciting race, we reward the 'heroes' of sport with fame and riches and then we act surprised and appalled that they will risk everything for a slight advantage? I'm not saying that I support cheating of any sort, or that races/organizations should tolerate it, but I just don't think it's really that earth-shattering.

Even if we keep the riders in solitary confinement when not racing, close the course of races to spectators and give everyone standard-issue bikes/jerseys/shoes/food, there is no way to prevent someone from finding a way to get an 'unfair' advantage.

I respect Vino for the way he got back on his bike after that crash; that was mental fortitude and a fighting spirit and I don't think that the doping takes away from that. But it galls me to hear him, and others in similar situations, deny the claims and suggest that the science that caught him is flawed in really absurd ways. That's just spineless. He knew what he was signing up for, he took a huge chance and he got caught. I might still have some respect for him if he'd come out and said it that simply.

My two cents.

Anne