runners vs. cyclist

[singletrackmind]

Just curious, why do you think this?

You know, you've made me realize I should have said that differently. Thanks!

Pedestrians are the only ones 'unarmed' with something extraneous that could hurt others. They are going slowly and unlikely to run into a bike or car. Note, I'm not saying unlikely to cause us to run into them, some do seem directionally unstable. All the more reason for us to exercise caution. While crashing into a pedestrian might cause both a great deal of pain and injury it's our speed that ups the ante, isn't it? Two people crashing into each other vs. a walkerpeople and a bikerpeople, seems obvious which pair would likely be worse hurt.

[Deanna]

I was wondering about the presence of runners in bike lanes a while back, and found out the law (in CA at least) is, they don't belong there if there's a sidewalk. It would be like running down a car lane. Runners are considered pedestrians, so if there's no sidewalk (chances are there's no bike lane), cyclists yield the right of way to the runners as they would any other pedestrians. If there is a sidewalk, a cyclists shouldn't have to swerve into a car lane to avoid a ped in the bike lane.

Part of what it may come down to is cycling advocacy groups have to work A LOT harder to get bike lanes put into general plans and striped on the roads, so cyclists may be justified in being a little possessive. Developers pretty much automatically put in sidewalks.

[SadieKate]

I was wondering about the presence of runners in bike lanes a while back, and found out the law (in CA at least) is, they don't belong there if there's a sidewalk. It would be like running down a car lane. Runners are considered pedestrians, so if there's no sidewalk (chances are there's no bike lane), cyclists yield the right of way to the runners as they would any other pedestrians. If there is a sidewalk, a cyclists shouldn't have to swerve into a car lane to avoid a ped in the bike lane.

Deanna, thanks for the research. I was trying to do that myself and then got distracted by something (surprise, surprise). Anyway, I realize that Davis is a unique-being unto itself in many ways cycling-related, but we do have a lot of roads with bike lanes and sidewalks. These tend to be on the edges of town and even out on what most people would consider a farm road, even on campus through the fields. Fortunately, in these instances, the bike lane tends to be very wide so if everyone goes single-file we can pass each other safely. I do as I said, hold my line and I stay to the right. Since in the US, we tend to be a "stay to the right" kind of culture, this makes me more predictable but it does force the runner to be closer to traffic.

One thing to consider is that asphalt is kinder to the joints than cement/concrete so runners tend to migrate to the road. Not to mention they don't like dodging walkers anymore than cyclists do.

Frankly, it's the runners/walkers who are not going against traffic that create the riskier problem.

[smilingcat]

So what am I supposed to do in the following situation? Happend to me on numerous occasion.

Several runners running toward me (going the opposite direction of traffic) in the bike lane.

I have no choice but to move into the traffic lane and out of the bike lane. Two or three of the runners then run out into the traffic lane and signals me to get back into the bike lane?? WHAT??

I have no choice to move further into the traffic lane and they do the same. I lock up my brake. They are angry that I didn't follow their instruction. I don't take this lightly and tell them they are jay walking and should get out of the street. And not impede a vehicle on the street. They are not nice so I'm not nice. GRRR!!!! I've also had this happen from skateboarders, in-line skaters, other beach going beach cruiser cyclists.

I used to run when I lived in NYC. When I was running on MUT I usually do little bit of "cross country" off the trail to let the cyclist go by. Its much easier for me as a runner to get out of the way than a cyclist.

When a jogger gets out of the bike lane I do thank them polietly. On a MUT, I wouldn't assume I have the right of way.

Smilingcat

[SadieKate]

Several runners running toward me (going the opposite direction of traffic) in the bike lane.

I have no choice but to move into the traffic lane and out of the bike lane. Two or three of the runners then run out into the traffic lane and signals me to get back into the bike lane?? WHAT??

I have no choice to move further into the traffic lane and they do the same.

So you and the runners are facing each other? And you move to your left out into traffic?

I'm trying to picture your example.

[smilingcat]

So you and the runners are facing each other? And you move to your left out into traffic?

I'm trying to picture your example.

Yes, they are running toward me. If I'm heading south on right hand side of the road, they are heading north on my side of the road. going against the traffic. They would be running toward the oncoming cars.

They are not running with the traffic but running against the traffic.

Make sense??
Smilingcat

[SadieKate]

If you read my posts, you'll know that I would stay to the right since in the US we stay to the right in most 2-way situations - passing each other in the hallway, on the sidewalk, whenever. I'm guessing the runners expected this.

Faster traffic passes on the left when going the same direction. We pass on the right when going opposite directions.

Anyone else? Deanna, did you research find anything?

This topic has made me look at running clubs to see what they recommend.

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/...1914-0,00.html
http://www.rrca.org/programs/education/safety.pdf
http://www.rrca.org/news/index.php?article=2176

[smilingcat]

If you read my posts, you'll know that I would stay to the right since in the US we stay to the right in most 2-way situations - passing each other in the hallway, on the sidewalk, whenever. I'm guessing the runners expected this.

Faster traffic passes on the left when going the same direction. We pass on the right when going opposite directions.

Anyone else? Deanna, did you research find anything?

This topic has made me look at running clubs to see what they recommend.

http://www.rrca.org/programs/education/safety.pdf
http://www.rrca.org/news/index.php?article=2176

Hi SK,

Typically, I would agree with you. but as Deanna pointed out, California vehicle code considers runners as pedestrians. And pedestrians are limited to sidewalk except in crosswalk or where there are no sidewalks. I'm considered a vehicle under California law. Runners are in violation for running on the street (bike lanes included) Me as a vehicle did the right thing by going to my left and let the runners go by my right, just as any vehicle would. I can get a ticket for running a stop sign/traffic light and I can even get a speeding ticket. And the violations SHOWS UP ON YOUR DRIVER LICENSE!!!

But I agree runners and cyclists do need to know the rules of the road so that we don't have near misses or accidents.

Smilingcat

[SadieKate]

This is where I think we all get confused. Yes, we are supposed to yield to pedestrians but I can't find out what that means when the pedestrian is in the street running towards you. Instinctively, I think we all would move to our right.

I mean, yielding could be slowing to a stop but you aren't going to slow to a stop in the middle of the road.

[Cyclo Kitty]

I wish they knew the rules of the road here--runners, cyclists, walkers, drivers.

The iPod-wearers are the most nerve-wracking, with the iPod-wearing people walking in the direction of traffic with a dog the most frightening of all. And I have seen most of the examples, all one sunny Saturday

The thing that gets me is the joggers running in the street (with or against traffic) on the boulevard where the nice, flat, maintained trail in the middle of the wide grassy parkway is pedestrian/jogger ONLY, no wheels except for strollers. It's not cement, it's soft, fine gravelly stuff. I can see not wanting to dodge strollers/dogs, but some won't use it ever, even in the early morning when hardly anyone is out. It is both scary and irritating (childish, I know).

I've had enough encounters with dogs to be very wary of them. People seem to ignore the leash law (there is one, I looked) and consider that their dog has the right of way, even in no dog posted areas.

All of these things are why I do not ride on the bike path, and instead ride outside of town on country roads, or on urban streets. In the country, I meet a few walkers, but they're usually walking against traffic and return greetings. And I always slow down for the horses.

[Deanna]

Anyone else? Deanna, did you research find anything?

No, the section I found dealt specifically with what is allowed in bike lanes. I have not looked into passing vs overtaking. But when passing a pedestrian walking on a "country road" (ie no sidewalks or bike lanes) you certainly stay to the left of them whether or not they are facing traffic--I think it would be the same for a bike lane encounter.

[Jiffer]

Changing the subject slightly ... but not really ... my sister and her Dh have a blind friend who runs. My brother-in-law runs with him and is his guide. They basically have a system down as to what BIL (brother-in-law) says when the blind friend needs to avoid something. They were running with a group along a trail one day. They went down a hill and hit a flat section that was half covered with mud. The runners moved to the dry section to run around the mud. Just as BIL and blind friend were in that section, a cyclist came screaming down the hill in front of them. BIL yelled for his friend to move a specific direction to miss both the cyclist and the mud. It was opposite of what he normally says, but on purpose. Blind guy was confused did the opposite and collided right into the cyclist. The cyclist started yelling obscenities until he realized the guy he hit was blind, then was all apologetic.

Blind guy got up, brushed off the road rash crud and said, "Let's go!" (This guy actually runs marathons. Amazing.)

I'm not sure how this relates to this thread except that it's for sure a very interesting "cyclist vs. runner" story to say the least!!!

[singletrackmind]

So what am I supposed to do in the following situation? Happend to me on numerous occasion.

Several runners running toward me (going the opposite direction of traffic) in the bike lane.
Smilingcat

If they are making themselves clear I do what they ask and thank them. It may not be the right way but they can see whether traffic is behind me and I can appreciate they are trying to be kind. It'd be nice if people were universal in their reactions to each other, then we wouldn't have these sorts of conundrums.