Training for Time Trials

[RoadRaven]

My partner and sons say epoxy you could use, but then you have no alternative if you want to take it off.

But what he and my son do with their HEDs is use a small round flat magnet, and tape over it with black electricians tape. Its the same stuff that they use to tape over the valve to make that part of the disc aero too.

I need to read the 'ominum' bits tomorrow - I'm too tired to quite get what you are saying.

I am glad you have had some races on the disc, I have yet to ride on a disc, but I do have some deep dish wheels (Grammo Vipers) I am going to ride for the first time tomorrow

I look forward to hearing about your stage racing next weekend... spesh the TT

[RoadRaven]

Considering the ridiculous expense of TT booties, and the only fractions of seconds, or maybe a few seconds, that might save (since all that air around pedals is "dirty" anyway) I am wondering about cheap alternatives...

What about socks, for example? Or does the coarseness of the wool or weave defeat the purpose of wearing them over your shoes?

What about a lycra sleeve if I messed about and fasioned one on my sewing machine?

Do you gals think its worth the effort?

[Eden]

What about a lycra sleeve if I messed about and fasioned one on my sewing machine?

Do you gals think its worth the effort?

Why not - I think the ones you buy are made of lycra - just sew it real small so that it fits nice and snug.
I think I've seen people use socks too - I have no idea if they are as effective.

[RoadRaven]

Think I'll give it a go... the lycra... it'll have to wait til the study break though, am snowed under at work!

[RoadRaven]

OK... This week is the week I try and make some TT booties (and mend my winter booties - plastic bags in my shoes are just NOT enough!)

But my question is about being "on the rivet" in a TT.

Watching the boys in the prologue (I LOVE this part of the TdF even though its only about 8km long) I noticed many were on the rivet... you know, sitting right forward on the nose of their seats.

Discussion with the family as we watch and its because you can potentially get more power for your push if you can sit a tad further forward.

Like a good girl I am sitting on the spin bike as I watch and TTing with them (for an hour or so of it) so I scoot forward to see how sitting on the rivet feels... and IMMEDIATELY scoot back...

There's this little matter of anatomy... we gals have a gap where guys dont, and that meant the nose of the seat felt like it was gonna go somewhere it wasn't intended. There's no way I could ride a TT for 40 minutes with that sensation!!!!

So... do gals... indeed, CAN gals... ride "on the rivet"? Do we need a special seat? Would tilting the seat down even more work? Is this a possible thing?

[equus123]

one thing that i find interesting about that idea of sitting more forward on the saddle for more power - if that's the case then why don't they move the saddle more forward? i really don't see the purpose in sitting on the nose of the saddle if you could just shift it forward so that you're in the same spot but sitting on the normal saddle position. anybody else wonder about that too? it seems pretty "der!" to me. lol

i think i have a very special private area because i can't sit on ANY other saddle than my Terry CrMo cutout otherwise i'm ready to scream within 5 minutes. even though this is the only comfy saddle for me, i can't even scoot forward or else that hurts like crazy. i don't know WHAT my deal is. so when i change my road bike into TT mode (i only have 1 bike), i just shove the saddle all the way forward and tilt down slightly.

[RoadRaven]

Hi there Equus... you're right... it is very logical to just move the seat forward.

However, the time-trial set-up is governed by strict UCI regs. So the boys in the Tour and indeed all other UCI sanctioned races MUST have the geometry "just so" or they will not be able to race.

So, you say, Raven rides in club races, she doesn't need to have her bike geometry "just so".

Well, my partner and sons ride in BikeNZ sanctioned races - which conform to UCI. Next year I will be entering some of these races too.

Therefore, even though most of our racing (every Saturday) is at club level, and of those races only about 10-15 per year (including Thursday evenings in Summer) are Time Trials, we set up our bikes according to UCI regs so that we can ride in whatever race we wish to without having to make adjustments to our bicycles.


Rules govern seat post angle/position of the nose of the seat... hence why male racers trying to get the most power possible sit "on the rivet" in time trials, and in power efforts during road/bunch race stages. They already have their seats as far forward as they can - but they want every millimetre they can make work for them.

I have not thought about this before when watching women race - and the few dvds I have of women's racing has not shown me women sitting "on the rivet". Surely there is a trick to it?

[smilingcat]

I'm not convinced that going that forward really helps with power.

Too much of good thing isn't good. little bit of aspirin is good too much will kill you. And I wonder about what effective seat tube angle, or rather the position of the seat in reference to the BB will give you the most amount of power.

On a hill climb, if my body is pushed back a bit, I can get more power into the pedals at the top and at the bottom then if I were sitting in the regular spot. But for TT, I think I prefer to sit bit forward cause it feels like I can sustain the power output with high cadence. I guess only way to know is use a power tap and measure on a hill, flat, & TT rides.

My newest seat, jett130, has a nose that is curved downward so trying to "ride on the rivet" is less worrisome. Its like the seat is tilted down on the nose even though the seat is more or less level (slightly pointing down for me.) Mind you I don't exactly ride right on the nose even when I'm forward.

smilingcat

[equus123]

Hi there Equus... you're right... it is very logical to just move the seat forward.

However, the time-trial set-up is governed by strict UCI regs. So the boys in the Tour and indeed all other UCI sanctioned races MUST have the geometry "just so" or they will not be able to race.

So, you say, Raven rides in club races, she doesn't need to have her bike geometry "just so".

Well, my partner and sons ride in BikeNZ sanctioned races - which conform to UCI. Next year I will be entering some of these races too.

Therefore, even though most of our racing (every Saturday) is at club level, and of those races only about 10-15 per year (including Thursday evenings in Summer) are Time Trials, we set up our bikes according to UCI regs so that we can ride in whatever race we wish to without having to make adjustments to our bicycles.


Rules govern seat post angle/position of the nose of the seat... hence why male racers trying to get the most power possible sit "on the rivet" in time trials, and in power efforts during road/bunch race stages. They already have their seats as far forward as they can - but they want every millimetre they can make work for them.

I have not thought about this before when watching women race - and the few dvds I have of women's racing has not shown me women sitting "on the rivet". Surely there is a trick to it?

excellent explaination. thank you

[equus123]

while on the topic of the phrase "on the rivet" - i learned where it's derived from yesterday while watching the Tour. for those who were curious as well...

"on the rivet" = back in the day when riders had leather saddles, they were anchored using rivets around the edges. some of these were placed on the nose so when riders slid forward on the saddle they were actually sitting on the rivets. hence the phrase was coined for whenever a rider is sitting forward like that. nifty!

[RoadRaven]

Yup... on the rivet... it was a good explaination in yesterdays (or is that the day before's - confusing myself with time differences...) coverage.

I think being on the rivet is something that happens when the heat goes on in a race - like when the peloton lifts the pace, or near the end of a TT.

Gonna experiment a bit this weekend - haven't been able to get on the road this week due to weather/early sun sets.

I'd like to see if it gives me more power - remembering that, historically, much cycling technique is based on how it is for men...

[RoadRaven]

Here... Cancellara's saddle from the prologue...

He has done away with the rivet altogether!


SOURCE:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007...chopped_saddle

[Eden]

I finally have a bit of what I consider to be a comparison between using and not using my disc/deep wheels on the TT bike.
So this weekend was the TT championship, its really the only long one around (unless you do triathalon) at 40K - most of the stand alone TT's around here are around 10 to 12K.
My hubby and I went out and pre rode the course the day before, since it was supposed to rain hard (ended up dry!) and we didn't want any suprises. The pre-ride I used my TT bike, but had my training wheels on it (Velocity Deep V's). Now we didn't do the whole ride at TT pace, but we did a few fast sections.
What I found was that I really noticed the disc when there was a cross wind. I've always heard that its actually an asset in a crosswind - unless of course its a really strong crosswind and blows you over...., since it acts like a sail - much like when a sailboat uses a crosswind to tack and go faster - and I really do think I could feel the extra boost. Doesn't do much for you in a direct headwind, but the course was really twisty so there were few sections going directly into the wind.
So I definitely think the disc works well, though it's not the lightest wheel available, for relatively flat courses its more of an asset than a hinderence. I wouldn't use it for anything hilly - mainly because of the weight, but also because its older and an 8 speed, fine on my TT bike on the flats and small rollers, but I would want something bigger than a 21 for real climbing

[SheFly]

I'm just catching up with this thread, so forgive me for being late to the party!

I definitely sit "on the rivet" while TT'ing. I ride a Fizik Arione saddle, and have to point the nose WAY down to be able to do this, but find that it works for me to get the power that I need. Apparently, given my past couple of weeks of TT results, it works.

Eden - thanks for the description on the disc wheels. Apparently I have a new pair of Zipps coming my way (I guess I have been a good girl ), and I will be anxious to compare them to the Ksyriums I am using now.

SheFly

[RoadRaven]

Well, I haven't really had a chance to notice how I sit... I forget to take note and just ride.

Interesting, SheFly, to hear that you do and it is possible. Now the days are getting longer, I will be able to target some serious research time into this. Some seat/nose adjustment might be in need though - don't want to do what i did on the trainer again!!!