Muslim Women All Body Swimsuits

[Mr. Bloom]

So lo and behold, now somebody has come up with the idea of hijab as fashion, especially as sports fashion, for everywoman. http://www.thehijabshop.com/capsters/index.php
First these designer sport hijabs were presented as a solution for Muslim women who want to run, ride, swim, ski ... But now it turns out lots of women are ordering them. (Note the "out of stock" on every single model!) They're pretty, comfy, practical (keep your hair clean, neat, out of the way). Think buff-with-chin-strap or Finland-style-balaklava but loose and airy. And in cool colors, coordinated with other sports gear. Nike also makes some -- in pink! http://www.ohmpage.ca/2006/03/20/nik...-sports-hijab/

Wow!!! A testimony to the potential versatility of the human spirit!

[Tuckervill]

Conservative modes of dress are not limited to Muslims, though. I have Pentecostal family members who have never cut their hair, wear only long skirts, and the men wear only long sleeved shirts. My own grandmother was over 80 before she cut her hair, but she had always worn it up, with a crown of ringlets around her face, so I never even knew she had long hair!

Many other Christian sects require modest dress, particularly from women. I can't think of any which require the face be covered (though I do know some who cover their heads). I think it's an interesting topic to ponder.

Karen

[Meaux]

I would say somone living in say Pakistan or Saudi Arabia would adhere to the Qur'an to the exact word. As Sharia law is followed very very closely not much choice.
C

Not to nit-pick, but my sister-in-law is from Karachi, Pakistan, and she told me that they don't have to cover there. It may because she is from the city and I think grew up in a more affluent part of the city, but when I asked her about it, she got sort of huffy (it's complicated) and she said that they don't have to cover in Pakistan. It does depend on the country, in some parts of Afghanistan, women have to cover fully, wearing burqas. In other Islamic countries, women don't have to cover. From my understanding, there's nothing in the Qur'an that specifically says that they have to cover their heads, it's a choice in some cases, a difference in how they interpret the Qur'an in others. I took a sociology in world religion class, and we had a really great speaker who shed light on a lot of things in Islam. So, that's my take on the situation.

[margo49]

Hair covering is a mostly a religious identity statement and the particular kind of hair covering you choose is a political statement for your co-religionists (fine distinctions being usually lost on outsiders).
Women are endlessly inventive when it comes to personal decoration and what looks to some like an authoritarian stricture is simply (another) challenge

That said there are "pathologicals" like me who know that 70% of body-heat issues (hot or cold) can be solved by covering the head and therefore consistently wear hats from a physiological motivation.

[margo49]

I also look so much more cute, jaunty, smart and a whole list of other adjectives!

[Mr. Bloom]

Many other Christian sects require modest dress, particularly from women. I can't think of any which require the face be covered (though I do know some who cover their heads). I think it's an interesting topic to ponder.

One important distinction:

The quote I made from 1 Peter is directed as an encouragement to women and this is a choice for Pentecostals.

The quote from the Qur'an seems directed to the prophet as a mandate for women.

But, I think Grog's comment remains key in this discussion...that is, for some, cultural influences would make them uncomfortable any other way...

It's also very interesting to me that exercise would not be possible without some of the more innovative options shown on the website...

[Trek420]

It's also very interesting to me that exercise would not be possible without some of the more innovative options shown on the website...

Oh please, Islamic women did and do plenty in sport without Nike, etc. From Wikipedia, source of all knowledge

Women were an integral part of the sport in ancient Persia. Polo originated in the royal courts of ancient Persia 2,500 years ago. The queen and her ladies-in-waiting would play against the emperor and his courtiers.[5]

Today, Iranian schools offer Sport for Iranian students including girls. Despite some restrictions, Iran has many female athletes talented enough to win medals in international competitions. In 2000, Atousa Pour-Kashian, became world chess champion. In 2004, Zahra Asgardoun won a silver medal in sanshu competitions of the Asian women's wushu event.

On 30 May 2005, Farkhondeh Sadegh, a graphic designer, and Laleh Keshavarz, a dentist, became the first Muslim women to make a successful ascent of Mount Everest. In December 2005, Iran wins Asian women's canoe polo crown. In 2006, Iranian wushu athletes gained five medals in the Third Grand International Wushu Festival in Warsaw, Poland. Iranian women's national team athlete, Elham Sadeqi, won three golds in Taolu events. Iran's top race car driver is Laleh Seddigh who is skilled in both circuit and rally driving.

National teams include: Iranian women national football team, national taekwondo team, Natioanl chess team, track and field team etc.

[Tuckervill]

The quote I made from 1 Peter is directed as an encouragement to women and this is a choice for Pentecostals.

I think we've already established that it's a choice for Muslims, too.

Karen

[Grog]

I think we've already established that it's a choice for Muslims, too.

More Canadian pocket change:

I think that's too broad a statement for me to agree with...

For some, or maybe even most, it might be a cultural statement, for others something they take for granted, etc. So sometimes it might be a choice, and other times, not. Saying it's a "choice" assumes that individuals live in a vacuum where they don't have to worry about the reactions of others... With a matter as loaded as religious expression through dress, I'm not sure we can take "choice" for granted.

And, I'm afraid, in some cases, it's a "choice" motivated by fear. Fear of rejection, fear of disappointing family members, or fear of being harassed or beaten up by local tyrans who think they should decide how you should dress. I certainly don't think it's a majority. But in tight-knit communities with a Muslim majority, like in some of Paris' suburbs, it's certainly happening.

(And even thinking about it, we could imagine a Muslim girl who lives in a non-Muslim community, with non-religious parents, wanting to cover her hair but not doing so because she fears ridicule or rejection from her parents. It's all relative...)

I just don't think it's something we can make sweeping statements about.

[Grog]

Oh, and just a thought:

I live in a small community (100 people) of graduate students from many countries. We take all of our meals together and share a number of common rooms.

Not so long ago, Japanese Woman X is sitting in the dining hall with her legs crossed. Japanese Man Y, a relatively friendly acquaintance but by no means a close friend, walked to her, slapped her on the knee and said (in Japanese, so I rely on her for the translation) that this was not a proper way to sit for a Japanese woman. There is no reason to believe that it was a joke.

She didn't feel too good about that, to say the least. I can't even start imagining the conflicted feelings she must have had following that event. It made ME very mad. But I'm sure her own feelings were much more complicated...

So generally I think it's safe to assume that how women dress, eat, sit, look, act, etc. is not just about their own "choice"... The same probably applies for men, as all men who have been found to be "too feminine" know...

[RoadRaven]

My two cents...

Interesting thread and interesting discussion

Re what the Koran says... well, one way of reading/interpreting passages of the Koran tells us that men cannot be trusted to behave themselves around women, that women should cover themselves in order to stay safe... men have no self control and the sight of womens skin can drive them past the edge of sanity. This interpretation has been verified for me by two Muslim males - however, they are only two of the thousands and thousands who follow this books teachings.

Regarding the Japanese man chastising the Japanese woman... well, Japan is actually highly prudish about sexuality in public (despite western perceptions of there fetishes with school girl uniforms etc).
My understanding is that Japanese law will not allow any displays of sexual intimacy in public unless they are between married couples. Hence, the only sexual scenes in movies with real people are between married couples. Hence the high popularity of manga and anime where the girls and women are cartoons and therefore ok to be involved in sexual acts with caricature males, or aliens/weird non-human creatures.

I am happy to be critiqued on this... this is only my perspective from what I have heard and seen and read on a very limited scale and from a western viewpoint and understanding.

[Mr. Bloom]

I think we've already established that it's a choice for Muslims, too.

Karen

While I'm confident that many do, I'm afraid that I know at least one Muslim woman who feels otherwise...she is a former co-worker from Pakistan, but she is ethnically Afgani. I think it varies by country/political environment.

But, even as an evangelical, I'm confident that women in some conservative christian sects feel more compulsion than choice in their clothing.

Roadraven: it's an interesting perspective that you offer. I'm intrigued because about 2% of the population probably commits 90% of our crimes (my guess)...While I don't agree with the characterization of men in general, I'm sure if they never saw a woman's skin, they'd like be driven crazy by the least bit...hmmm, I have to think about this one.

[Kitsune06]

Mr. Silver, Raven, I agree with both of you.
The higher you set the standard for 'clothed' whether the norm is loincloths or long pants, the standard for 'revealing' will always be relative and proportional. To the point where in nudist areas, the reverse occurs and a woman wearing a bikini is alluring, and also where a woman fully clothed but revealing a fine-boned ankle or wrist is wildly exciting.

But also, the more sexuality is repressed, the more violently it comes out, the less suggestion is needed, and it would be easy to conclude "Women need to be more conservative."

Therein is the misconception. And a dangerous one. While I agree that 2% of the population commit 90% of the crime (or some figure like that) it isn't necessarily a matter of those committing the crimes but society's reaction to said crimes.

As long as there is a feeling like "she deserved it- look what she was wearing" we are doing men and women a great disservice. We're telling women that they can't wear what they please because they have to be afraid of men; that they could ever deserve something like that.... We're telling men that they're animals and we don't expect them to have any self-restraint. It's unfair to everyone.

...but take that all with a grain of salt; I'm no criminal psychologist, just a laywoman watching it all from the sidelines.

[Mr. Bloom]

Kitsune: Wow Well Said!

[pll]

I have been reading this thread with great interest. Let me just offer you, from Lima's history, a contrast in how people interpret modesty and morality.

Lima was the capital of the vice royalty of Peru, which at some point encompassed most of South America. Between 1560 and around 1840, whenever in the streets, women wore a manto (a type of shawl, made of silk) and saya (a long skirt). They would cover their entire head, save for one eye. There is some speculation that the "fashion" came from Andalucia, from Muslim women who used a shawl rather than a hijab to cover their heads after the reconquest of Spain.

In Lima, rather than being modest attire, it was widely used by women to flirt in anonymity (allowing a shoulder to be uncovered, showing a wrist or ankle...). As early as 1561, the viceroys attempted to prohibit the use of the shawls as something that represented immorality and an attack to "good customs". At some point the second Archbishop of Lima (Santo Toribio) tried to prohibit its use in processions or in church and threatened with ex-communion. Every time, the prohibitions generated a huge outcry and did not work. The custom slowly disappeared in the mid 1800s (a couple of decades after independence from Spain) in favor of French fashions.

The "tapada limeña" ("tapar" = to cover) remains an icon of flirtatious behavior by women from Lima. I find this contrast interesting.