DebW in the 21st century?

[Triskeliongirl]

Deb,
at 5'7" and 32" inseam, I'm trrying to understand why you would need wheels smaller than 700 to avoid toeoverlap.
I'm 5'5", inseam 30", shoe size 9. On my Rivendell 54cm w/700 wheels, I seldom if ever get toe overlap- it's just not a problem.
Is the issue for you because your top tube is going to be shortened to accomodate your "women's reach"? Is it because this is going to be a WSD?

Lisa, its not just your height and inseam, reach is also dicated by BOTH the length of your arms/torso and the length of your femur. The length of the femur dictates how far back your saddle is relative to the bottom bracket. Long femured people (like me) sit very far back, further lengthening our reach, so then we need a shorter top tube to reach the handlebars. Then arm and torso length also effects reach. Toe clip happens when the top tube gets too short to accodomodate a 700c wheel. Some manufacturers fix this by slackening the head tube angle, but then the handling becomes sluggish, which is why some of us need bikes with smaller front wheels. Other manufacturers fool women into thinking they are buying a bike with a short reach by reporting a short top tube, but then steeping up the seat tube so much that they can never get set up properly on the bike. You are lucky 700c wheels work well for you body, makes life much easier!

[KnottedYet]

Thank you for explaining that, Trisk! Very cool. I feel pretty lucky now that I have such a long torso and long arms, and now I understand why pretty standard bike geometries seem to fit me fine even though I've got such long femurs! (it's the torso and arms)

Thanks!

[DebW]

From what you are saying lately, maybe having him favor a touring geometry is what you want, but to not use super heavy tubes like for camping style self supported loaded touring.

Yes, I think that is a good description. But not sure if the tubes need to be somewhat heavier because the wheelbase is stretched. I'll have to ask.

Will you go 26" as in mountain bike size or 650B for your touring wheelset?

I'll do 26" MTB rims and 32mm tires for the touring wheels so I can manage unpaved rail trails.

I looked up his website, and saw he lists bikes as road and touring, at least in his 'stock' frames, but not in between, and his 'road' frames seem to be road racing, so maybe that was the source of the problem with the front rack.

Since most of his frames are custom, I guess the categories are somewhat arbitrary. His bias is to "build it for the way you will use it most". He's built too many touring bikes for people who ultimately seldom tour.

But if you are going to have it accept 26" wheels, do you want the option of going wider than 32c or to use both wide tires and mud guards? If so you may need to rethink the brakes. I would get him to confirm that you can use BOTH mudguards and 32c tires with long reach side pulls. Maybe it depends on exactly where he puts your bridge. What fun you must be having designing this bike!

I originally asked for fender brackets, and he thought 32 was the widest tire he could design for. Later I said that fenders weren't so important if it compromised something else. We'll see what he comes up with.

[Triskeliongirl]

I went through a similar thing with fenders. On the phone he thought he could make it accomodate 32c tires and fenders, but when he saw my frame the bridge got in the way. So, I sat down and compared my terry 'sport bike' (isis) to my terry 'touring bike' (classic) by looking at them and the biggest difference I noticed was not that the geometry in terms of frame angles and tube lengths, but the distance between the 2 seat stays and the 2 fork blades was wider on the touring bike, and the bridges were set higher, to allow clearance for wider tires and fenders. What I am now starting to wonder, is if that is also a big part of the 'touring geometry' that is just not obvious from looking at a geometry table. I sacrificed fenders cuz I don't use them where I live and I worried about moving the bridge, but if I were building from scratch like you, I might rethink it. Maybe what will help is to start imagining what you will do with this bike when you retire. Do you anticipate wanting to tour in a place where it does rain, and having mudguards would be helpful. This will be your only 'travel bike' so what will do it with it when you travel? Do you want to land somewhere and go for a fast club ride, or tour? You have your old bike for fast riding, so if you were thinking you just wanted the new one to do fast riding at home and tour when traveling, then maybe you do want a full blown tourer. Another thing I will warn you, is that while I thought I would use my new S/S coupled bike for traveling and commuting, I realized locking it is a major hassle (requires a front skewer lock avail from peter white AND 2 other locks), so keeping your old bike for everyday use and the new bike for touring and travel may help you narrow down your choices. BUT, if you go the touring route don't let him overbuild it. Be honest with him on the rider plus luggage weights you want it to support, and stress you still want to keep it as light but functional as possible.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

You are lucky 700c wheels work well for you body, makes life much easier!

Well, I wouldn't say my bike is a perfect fit though- I do have reach issues, becuase it's a man's bike and i have a typical woman's measurements. I had to put a REALLY short stem- shorter than I'd have wanted- to make the reach comfortable. Now the steering is less steady than I'd like.
That's one reason I am reading this thread with interest- I want to understand all this women's custom fit stuff better. Thanks for expalining some of those things to me- lots of good info!

[Triskeliongirl]

Well, I wouldn't say my bike is a perfect fit though- I do have reach issues, becuase it's a man's bike and i have a typical woman's measurements. I had to put a REALLY short stem- shorter than I'd have wanted- to make the reach comfortable. Now the steering is less steady than I'd like.
That's one reason I am reading this thread with interest- I want to understand all this women's custom fit stuff better. Thanks for expalining some of those things to me- lots of good info!

Yeh, I remembered that but didn't want to say anything since there isn't much you can do about it now. That is the *other* solution, use a short stem, but as you can see that can create handling issues. BUT, you seemed to be really happy with it until we brought it up. I had a short stem on a bike once and it was OK but I had trouble climbing out of the saddle. It was only when I went to a longer stem that I found out how much better that is. But too long can also have problems. Its all about balance on the bike. That is why I think Deb is so smart to be going custom. Often it doesn't cost anymore than buying a high end bike, and if you have confidence in your builder's ability to fit women, it can really be the best option. The trick is finding the right builder! The main reason I didn't go custom was that I didn't have anyone local that I trusted to do it right. Just the fact that Deb's builder suggested 650c wheels makes me trust that he gets it.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

My first 3 months were with the way long 9cm stem and I could not get comfortable with the long reach. Switched to a 5cm stem which felt instantly WAY better and seemed just fine. It certainly solved the problem at the time.

However, after another 5 months of riding on this short stem, I think my core muscles have strengthened and I've become a better and stronger rider. So now I'm starting to bump up against the limitations of the shorter stem whereas before it was simply a matter of being far more comfortable and I wasn't pushing myself or the bike so much.
My next step is to try a compromise- switch to a 7cm stem and perhaps my stronger core muscles now will help me feel ok with the reach increase. I feel almost now like I could USE an extra cm or two in the "cockpit"- odd how our needs might change as we get stronger. It's a subtle thing though, and my bike is still quite comfortable for me as it is now, so I'll swap the stem for a 7 the next time I might bring it in for some work or a tuneup.
Nothing like first hand experience to help one figure all this stuff out!

[DebW]

Another thing I will warn you, is that while I thought I would use my new S/S coupled bike for traveling and commuting, I realized locking it is a major hassle (requires a front skewer lock avail from peter white AND 2 other locks), so keeping your old bike for everyday use and the new bike for touring and travel may help you narrow down your choices.

I didn't think about the locking issue with the S&S couplers. Though it takes a special tool to open the couplers so I doubt that your average thief could steal it easily. When I commute I bring my bike into my office, so that part isn't an issue anyway. But camping on a bike tour I'd want to lock it over night.

That is why I think Deb is so smart to be going custom. Often it doesn't cost anymore than buying a high end bike, and if you have confidence in your builder's ability to fit women, it can really be the best option. The trick is finding the right builder!

Well, the custom frame certainly isn't cheap, and I haven't seen a price yet on the components. But I'm sure it will be worth it to have a perfectly fitting bike tailored to my needs.

[Triskeliongirl]

These are what my LBS recommended to securely lock the bike. http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/pitlock.asp
While it is true you need a special tool to take the couplers apart, its a tool that any bike thief can easily order online. I may be more sensitive to this after having my bike friday stolen. Now I only leave a bike parked with a NYC kryptonite lock, cuz I realize how easy it is to cut a cable lock. I haven't left Feronia locked anywhere yet, but the LBS guys said if I am going to do it, to purchase the front wheel skewer lock from peter, and then lock the front wheel plus down tube with one NYC long to an immobile object, and the rear wheel plus seat tube with another NYC lock to an immobile object. BUT that means you have to carry 10 lb of locks with you! I will just try to not have to lock my bike, eat in outdoor restaurants, or use a light lock by sit where I can see it, or leave it in a hotel room. I don't camp by bike, but you mentioned camping. If you are going to camp, maybe you do want a full blown loaded touring bike! I am sooo curious to see how your bike turns out. I like your builders attitutude towards women, just recognizing that you need a shallow STA, 650c wheels and a short top tube says a lot. While I think the bikes I have are it for me, I've learned to never say never. Stuff happens, bikes get crashed, bikes get stolen. So, if I do ever do this again I would go custom if I could find the right builder.

[Triskeliongirl]

My first 3 months were with the way long 9cm stem and I could not get comfortable with the long reach. Switched to a 5cm stem which felt instantly WAY better and seemed just fine. It certainly solved the problem at the time......My next step is to try a compromise- switch to a 7cm stem and perhaps my stronger core muscles now will help me feel ok with the reach increase.

Lisa, a 9 cm stem is not way long, it is an ideal size from a handling perspective. If I were you, rather than buying a 7 cm stem, I would buy a short reach bar (same cost as new stem). The Rivendell iyou have is spec'd with a nitto noodle, which is a great bar (I have it on my bikes) but a long reach bar (I can only get away with it cuz I have a short top tube and 24" front wheel). If you do indeed have the noodle it has a 9 cm reach. SO, if you pair a 9 cm stem with a short reach bar (both the eva bar mimi likes and the salsa poco have a 7 cm reach), the total reach will be the same as pairing your 9 cm reach bar with a 7 cm stem, but the bike will handle better with the longer stem. Of course if you just love the noodle bar you may not like it though. What you'll lose is that extra hand position behind the hoods, but then you may find you can use the tops more instead. While I love my nitto noodle bar, if I bought a bike with the geometry you did I would switch bars.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Triskelion, these are excellent points and I will think about them!
Right now, off early tomorrow morning for a weeklong trip and no TE....see you all in a week or so!

[anakiwa]

Hi Deb-

Just thought I'd mention that I used some the suggestions you made (I posted a couple of months ago) when I ordered my custom road bike (won't be here for a few more months but there's snow outside so I don't care).

I was wanting a compact, but eventually came to realize that I'm just more comfortable having the gearing options of a triple. You suggested dumping the STI shifter for the front derailler and doing a downtube shifter. Ultimately I wound up ordering a STI short reach shifter for the rear brake/derailler and a bar end shifter & standard brake lever for the front brake/derailler. It sounds like this might be an option worth considering for you as well. The STI shifter really is fast and easy for the rear (I have one on my current road bike)- it's the triple where it really seems to make sense to keep the friction shifting option.

Have fun and good luck!

[DebW]

anakiwa, that does seem like a nice option, and I hope it works well for you.
If we get some warm weather in the next month or two, I might go test ride bikes with different shifters before I make my final decision. Barcons are the closest thing currently on the market to the friction downtube shifters I'm used to. I did ride a bike with STI recently for a couple miles, and while the rear did shift nicely, I didn't like the way the lever wobbled back and forth while braking. Besides, I think STI shifters look big and bulbous and ugly. The barcon rear shifter can run in friction or indexed mode, so I won't be locked into only 9 speed cassettes, and the system is field-repairable.

[DebW]

Just found out that my frame is built. It should go to the painter by weeks end.

[KnottedYet]

Cool!!!!!