Should Men be allowed in a Women's Forum?

[jeannierides]

Hoo boy... this is bound to get me in trouble, but I just can't keep my mouth shut.

So... the opposing side, while nobody's being horrible and demanding a ban on all men, seems to be saying "we're uncomfortable with a man in our 'locker room'. We deserve our own space."

Just the other day, I was witness to a really shameful scene. I was touring a gym that I was considering joining, and while I was there there was a sudden and very large stir. One of the members had found out that one of the trainers there was *gasp* a lesbian, and the idea that this woman might see her naked in the locker rooms made her uncomfortable. She had never been uncomfortable before, but once she found out that someone there was different from her, she had anxiety and fear.

I'm not sure how your fear and discomfort of men, even when they're showing themselves to be behaving appropriately, is any different. Inappropriate behavior on the forums is just that - inappropriate, no matter who it's coming from, and needs to be dealt with on an issue-by-issue basis and not on one that's discriminatory and originates in fear. Where I don't feel discomfited by Mr. Silver's presence here, I have to tip my hat to Kitsune for being the first to say that banning him simply because he's a man is in fact SEXIST and a form of discrimination.

Part of what I think makes TE different is that we don't discriminate. We all work to make everyone feel welcome, whether they're hardcore roadies or older ladies on their cruisers but right now we're talking about who's NOT welcome! I'm a little shocked by it; we are a fairly diverse group and I've never witnessed anything worse than a couple of snotty comments.

We don't have serious problems with harassment or with men invading our space; we don't hang a sign on our door that says "NO BOYZ", and therefore it's no fun to come bug us. Those few that do show up are met with little interest at best. The day we lay down the law is the day we ask for people to protest our negative and exclusionary behavior.

<<<what she said.

I couldn't (didn't) say it better...

[emily_in_nc]

Just chiming in here to agree with those who have argued for lack of discrimination on TE. I enjoy Mr. Silver's posts, and I don't think his gender should be cause for banning him (or other respectful men who might come here in the future) from the forum. I do enjoy the mostly female group here, but Mr. Silver does not seem interested in discussions of female anatomy, diva cup or the like. He's discussing weight loss and posting supportive comments on some of the off-topic threads. I just don't see the harm in it. I'd like to think of us as an inclusive community, not exclusive. We don't discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation here, why gender? It's a bit of a slippery slope to me....

Emily

[Thorn]

Like I can say it any better than Hip & Co, but, just to add 2cents to a million dollar pot...

Forums have a personality and tone that is the aggregate of the people who participate. While this forum may be predominately women, look at the breadth of backgrounds. We have the full political spectrum, we're international, we have stay at home moms, doctors, nurses, engineers, and research scientists, gay, straight, single, married, divorced, rich, poor...if there is a segment of society, we've probably got it.

It is that diversity that gives this board its wonderful personality. If a person drops by, sees that personality and wants to play, who are you to turn them away just because they're male? Perhaps, just perhaps, what makes this forum differernt from others is that wonderful mix of world society that we have. Diversity is a good thing.

As others have said, the personality of the forum will self regulate. If anyone (even cranky old me) falls too far from the personality, the forum will self-regulate.



Disclaimer: I have spent most of my working life in a male dominated field. Just because I may have been discriminated for being female does not mean I have the right to discriminate against someone for being male. Needless to say, I don't believe gender is a reason to moderate a person off this or any other forum. And, gee, how can anyone take offense at Mr. Silver? He's bared his soul and has us all at least thinking about eating better.

[Veronica]

And, gee, how can anyone take offense at Mr. Silver? He's bared his soul and has us all at least thinking about eating better.

I'm NOT thinking about eating better. I want another cookie!

V.

[Trek420]

Like I can say it any better than Hip & Co, but, just to add 2cents to a million dollar pot...

Forums have a personality and tone that is the aggregate of the people who participate. While this forum may be predominately women, look at the breadth of backgrounds. We have the full political spectrum, we're international, we have stay at home moms, doctors, nurses, engineers, and research scientists, gay, straight, single, married, divorced, rich, poor...if there is a segment of society, we've probably got it.

It is that diversity that gives this board its wonderful personality.

No you did say it better.

"Forums have a personality and tone that is the aggregate of the people who participate...."

I'm just asking is all....please don't kill the messenger...just a question:

In the top left hand corner of your screen ladies and gentlemen you see "women's cycling discussion forums".

We are it, but we don't own it.

Two keystrokes and we're a "cycling forum".

I'm just asking is all, what do you think of that?

Would we still "have a personality and tone that is the aggregate of the people who participate." as Thorn so well said.

I hope so. I was after all the 2nd person on the board to welcome Mr. Silver.

[doc]

Nothing new here, just my 'vote'

Discrimination s*cks. I won't be party to it.

Anyone of any gender should, and hoepfully will, be banned for abusive or seriously inappropriate comments (NOT just varying opinions). All other comments and the people who make them are welcome.

Anyone reading or joining this forum knows it is slanted for women and issues that relate specifically to them. If you have a useful, respectful, thoughtful, funny,(......) comment, by all means throw it in whoever you are.

[Crankin]

I am uncomfortable with the thought that someone would be uncomfortable with a respectful male posting here! Yes, there are some "private" topics discussed here, but frankly, anyone can see them. They might not post in reply, but they could be reading everything. There have been a few things that I wouldn't post about, because I don't want someone googling my name and seeing my discussion of an "intimate" problem. I don't mind if others discuss whatever, but you never know who is reading the boards.
My husband is a lot like Mr. Silver. The thought that some would want to ban him is a little dismaying. He doesn't want to sit around and talk about Diva cups, etc, but he might have something interesting to say about cycling, weight loss, etc. I know he went to the saddle thread when I was having all of my issues this summer.
Let's keep this group diverse and inclusionary (is that a word?). Unless someone of either gender is being inappropriate, they should be able to post here.

[East Hill]

Not only do we come here as an escape from too much testosterone, but I would imagine some men may do so as well.

As long as there is respect for issues which only women face (pregnancy, PMS, saddles fitting in the wrong places for women) I don't see why men should not participate.

If the men who do sign up cause problems, I would imagine that the TOS for the forum would take care of that.

I am certain that men lurk here. But they probably get bored fairly quickly.

East Hill

[siume99]

Interesting turn of events just happened. I just bought a dual bottle holder for the seat of my tri bike. My predicament was that I also wanted a seat bag for spare tube, tools, cell phone, etc. Today, I Googled “triathlon seat bag.” Low and behold I found a link to your forums.

I apologize that I don’t remember who said this, but someone said they wouldn’t kick George Hincapie out for asking questions about a hypothetical women’s clothing line. A salesperson should understand how the product will help a customer. Also, they should understand the short comings and how to overcome them. Your “tips-n-tricks” section caught my eye. If I sold bikes and accessories, I’d probably want to do my research on your website to “satisfy each and every customer.” (No sexual intention, it was the Sears motto.) My LBSs don’t have many female associates (if any). I might be wrong, but I’m guessing some women feel intimidated walking into situations like this. If there are men and women looking for tools to better serve their customers, then why not allow it?

I currently work as an engineer. I’ve found that diversity (age, sex, race, job duties, backgrounds…etc) create a stronger design. Having these different points of view help uncover the best answer. I mention this, because I assume you sometimes post questions on various topics that somehow relate to the men in your life; fathers, sons, boyfriends, husbands, training partners, coworkers, that idiot driver that says “nice @$$.” Not everyone has the confidence or opportunity to flat out ask sensitive/personal questions in person. That is one advantage of the WWW. Anonymity. If it makes you uncomfortable for a stranger to read what you wrote, don’t write it. Even with your sign in name you have anonymity. As Thumper’s mother told him, “if you can’t say nothing nice, don’t say nothing at all.” I think it’s foolish to not get all the information you can on a subject. No one says you have to agree with what you find. You are an individual who is free to make his/her own decisions.

Yeah, well if you haven’t already figured it out, I’m a guy. I do have a mom, girlfriend, female training partners, and coworkers that I care about and sometimes have questions pertaining them. I’m confident enough in myself to say that my tri bike has a “female intended saddle” from Serfas. It works for my pelvis structure. I also have long legs and a short torso. Sound familiar? There is no such thing as a “typical guy/gal.” “Averaging” is the summing of all the values and dividing by the sample number. It’s a way of simplifying the situation. It sometimes hides the good/bad outliers. Don’t let the actions of a few, dictate what happens to all. Have special “cures” for those situations. Everyone is physically and psychologically unique. I hope I didn’t offend anyone. It wasn’t intentional.

I feel that the quality of your website would go down if you “outlawed” men. I only say this because you would loose additional view points. I understand you have the option, not necessarily the right, to ban men. This is the WWW you know. How would “real” women get into the forum to search for input? If it’s by invite, not everyone knows “somebody.” Again, you still have your anonymity.

That’s my 2 cent donation….

Oh BTW, any suggestions for a seat bag if I have a Minoura twin bottle cage under my saddle?

[margo49]

.

I feel that the quality of your website would go down if you “outlawed” men. I only say this because you would loose additional view points.
?

Do you mean to imply that you have raised the quality of TE??

To anyone else worried about losing additional viewpoints:
I am prepared to give more than one point of view on any subject you name. Or at least post several times on the same topic - each time raising a different *aspect* . (So it would be several one-paragraph posts instead of a longer one with paragraph indentations)

[mimitabby]

I

Yeah, well if you haven’t already figured it out, I’m a guy. I do have a mom, girlfriend, female training partners, and coworkers that I care about and sometimes have questions pertaining them. I’m confident enough in myself to say that my tri bike has a “female intended saddle” from Serfas. It works for my pelvis structure. I also have long legs and a short torso. Sound familiar? There is no such thing as a “typical guy/gal.” “Averaging” is the summing of all the values and dividing by the sample number. It’s a way of simplifying the situation. It sometimes hides the good/bad outliers. Don’t let the actions of a few, dictate what happens to all. Have special “cures” for those situations. Everyone is physically and psychologically unique. I hope I didn’t offend anyone. It wasn’t intentional.

I feel that the quality of your website would go down if you “outlawed” men. I only say this because you would loose additional view points. I understand you have the option, not necessarily the right, to ban men. This is the WWW you know. How would “real” women get into the forum to search for input? If it’s by invite, not everyone knows “somebody.” Again, you still have your anonymity.

That’s my 2 cent donation….

Oh BTW, any suggestions for a seat bag if I have a Minoura twin bottle cage under my saddle?

Dear Siume
Welcome to TE. I am glad you are inobtrusively reading and enjoying TE.
You have brought up some very valid points, nothing is private on this forum
and people need to be reminded of that fact every now and then.
m

[CycleChic06]

How would “real” women get into the forum to search for input? If it’s by invite, not everyone knows “somebody.”

This is true. I still haven't figured out how to get in the women's forum on the bike forums website. It's hidden and apparently you have to email someone but I don't know who. This forum is much easier to get on to.

[Duck on Wheels]

I'm still kinda on the fence on this one, and therefore glad to see that discussions are ongoing and (not least!) amicable. Seems like we all acknowledge one anothers points of view, which feels right to me. It's part of what TE, at its best, has felt like all along.

So here's my acknowledgement to both sides:

On the one hand -- I've experienced TE as a place I expected to feel at home from the get go because it was a women's cycling forum. That, and the TE rules of behaviour (not sure whether these are published anywhere, but sister Trek420 explained them to me as motivation to join) such as acceptance for (especially women) cyclists at all levels, supportive and informative response to whatever questions one has -- no question to embarrassing or too stupid or too naive or ... whatever. Also that we tiptoe around divisive issues, but without totally hiding them, just trying not to insult one another yet recognizing our differences on all kinds of levels. And I must say, the fact that it's a women's forum goes some ways to making those rules more credible, and possibly easier to "police" ...? Because, whatever I may think of a strict biological sexual divide (see below), I do recognize that there tends to be a cultural one.

On the other hand -- Most of the few men who've participated openly and actively for any length of time (and certainly Mr. Silver and my cousin Maury) have found themselves right at home abiding by those rules. In fact, I can readily see where Mr. Silver would be attracted to our forum, given his cycling goals. C'mon! We've had our laughs about some of those testosterone-enriched fora where every other guy is posting about how embarrassing it is to be passed by a woman cyclist! How supportive would such a place be to a guy who's training to lose weight and keep up with his cycling wife? Furthermore, recognizing and accepting all other differences but drawing the line according to a more or less arbitrary biological definition (I won't go into details, but in my line of research we question the reality of a binary division into two mutually exclusive sexes) ... well, isn't that a bit inconsistent?

So how can we balance between these two sides of the fence? Could we continue to call ourselves a women's cycling forum, but accept men on an invitation only basis? And should we maybe have a set of rules, formulated politely and in positive terms ("On TE we always ..." rather than "On TE we do not ...")? That way we can still "out" the occasional "troll". We're not as likely to get a rush of men applicants, either as positive seekers or as web "pirates" out to break into any place that tries to exclude them. We can also admonish, or worst case exclude, anybody who behaves rudely.

Or then again ... maybe we just let this discussion take its course and then, wherever we land, try to go on without making any changes. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.