650s or 700s?

[emily_in_nc]

I'm 5' even and all of my bikes up till now have always been 700's (I ride a 44cm). I don't have a toe overlap problem on any of my bikes no matter what the wheel size, but I do have quite small feet.

Eden, it may be all in the foot size, but I suspect your top tubes must be longer than mine, even in a 44cm frame size. As a racer, you probably ride in a more aero position than me (I ride at about a 45-degree angle), so may prefer a longer top tube. Do you know what length your (effective top tube, if slanted) is? The reason I ask is because at a 19" top tube length, there is no way to avoid toe overlap with 700c wheels and typical seat tube angles (73-75 degrees). My 44.5 cm Terry had a 73 degree STA and a 19" top tube. No toe overlap because of the small front wheel. My 46cm Aegis has a 75 degree STA and a 19.1" top tube, and I have a bit of toe overlap. I wear size 7 shoes, so not tiny but not huge either. If I had larger wheels, it would be unacceptable, though.

Just interested!

Thanks,
Emily

[Eden]

Eden, it may be all in the foot size, but I suspect your top tubes must be longer than mine, even in a 44cm frame size. As a racer, you probably ride in a more aero position than me (I ride at about a 45-degree angle), so may prefer a longer top tube. Do you know what length your (effective top tube, if slanted) is? The reason I ask is because at a 19" top tube length, there is no way to avoid toe overlap with 700c wheels and typical seat tube angles (73-75 degrees). My 44.5 cm Terry had a 73 degree STA and a 19" top tube. No toe overlap because of the small front wheel. My 46cm Aegis has a 75 degree STA and a 19.1" top tube, and I have a bit of toe overlap. I wear size 7 shoes, so not tiny but not huge either. If I had larger wheels, it would be unacceptable, though.

Just interested!

Thanks,
Emily

I'm really short torso and armed so I tried to find the shortest tt around. When I ordered my first small bike, which was the Fuji, the web site listed it as having 650's so it was a bit of a surprise when it came with standard 700's. My Fuji (44cm) has an eff tt 493cm with compact geometry, my Ruby(44cm) has an eff tt of 496cm, also compact geometry. I don't have the specs for the new bike around (It's a Ticycles Hyak 47cm), but I seem to remember that it has the same tt as my Ruby, but is standard geometry. None of them cause me any toe overlap problems, but as I said I have very small feet - I wear a size 4.5 to 5 usually. The Ruby's front fork was designed to prevent toe overlap and in direct comparison with the new bike I think the Ruby may actually have more clearance. Someday I'm going to have to ride them both back to back to really see how they differ as far as handling/cornering go. With fenders on the Fuji every once in a while my toe would rub the fender, but it never caused me any real problems.

[Kathi]

I just built a custom frame with 650c wheels. When I demoed bikes the only one I could find small enough in the brand that I wanted was a 48 cm on 700c wheels. The bike was too big for me, which I noticed, but I couldn't tell the difference between wheel sizes.

If you're worried about a harsher ride run less air in your tires, I run about 90 lbs. I also got handbuilt wheels for my new bike. They were designed for a small 105 lb rider rather than a 180 lb rider. They are more compliant than stock wheels and give me a very smooth ride. I read somewhere that a 650c wheelset will be 25% stiffer than a 700c wheelset of the same build. The builder was in Santa Fe, New Mexico and he has access to a company that makes rims for a light rider.

I have no issues with keeping up with others. Since I got my new bike my friends call me little lightning because I often catch up with them and disappear ahead of them.

[emily_in_nc]

I'm really short torso and armed so I tried to find the shortest tt around. When I ordered my first small bike, which was the Fuji, the web site listed it as having 650's so it was a bit of a surprise when it came with standard 700's. My Fuji (44cm) has an eff tt 493cm with compact geometry, my Ruby(44cm) has an eff tt of 496cm, also compact geometry.

Interesting - thanks for the info! Both your bikes have slightly longer top tubes than mine (yours are ~ 19.4", mine 19.1"), and of course you have much smaller feet. You likely wouldn't have toe overlap on my Aegis like I do because of your smaller feet. You're right, though, the fork rake also makes a difference. That's something I don't know much about.

Emily

[GLC1968]

Emily - I have a 44cm specialized and 6.5 size foot. While it doesn't have toe overlap, it does have a much larger fork rake than my previous Fuji (49cm) did and both bikes have 700cc wheels (the Fuji was too big). I also have a Terry classic with a 24/700 combo on a slightly larger frame (since the tt was shorter, I could ride a 19'). There is a HUGE handling difference between my Terry and my Specialized. The Specialized is sluggish...though I never thought so until I got used to the Terry. Most people don't believe that there could be a difference or that it would be in that direction. A stiff and light aluminum road bike has more sluggish steering than a steel touring bike with thick tires? Yep!

I'm awaiting the arrival of a new Terry Isis which will have 650s, so I'll be able to offer an additional comparison by the end of the week (Yipee!). I loved how my Classic felt/fit so much that I wanted a 'go fast' bike from Terry.

I also agree with Lisa. You cannot fairly compare the ride difference between a 700x25 and a 650x23. Both of my road bikes have 23's and while I think they ride fine, my husband switched from a 700x25 to a 700x23 for one ride and HATED them. He promptly went back to the 25's for the smoother ride. He said the slightly reduced rolling resistance was not noticible enough to put up with the rougher ride.

[mimitabby]

gosh all you guys have little feet.

(size 8-9)
mimi

[Bluetree]

gosh all you guys have little feet.

(size 8-9)
mimi

We have Happy Feet

(size 6)
Joy

[Lucky 13]

Hi. I've been riding a 650c on a Cannondale 2.8 aluminum R500, 43cm for the past 5 years. I'm told that it was not originally made for a woman, but for a small man or perhaps small teenager. I'm 5'2 and needed a quite a bit of adjustment from the handlebars, stem, and seat. It fits like a glove. As far as ride, I feel every pebble on the road. Because I am commuting now and need to sometimes roll through the pot holes of Boston, I switched to a hybrid with front shocks and a couch for a seat...a totally different beast, no comparison. I now feel like I am riding the Bismark!

I've done a handful of multiple day charity rides on the 650c and packed wisely. I always carried an extra tube and TIRE with me because I was told that the roaving bike mechanics probably wouldn't carry 650c with them. I remember one charity ride I did and found a woman close to tears because she kept getting flat tires. Come to find out the tire itself was cut and everyone that passed her was riding a 700....couldn't lend her a tire. She was ready to sag. I came along and saved the day(my claim to fame that day!) and gave her my extra tire. Away she went to finish the days ride...smiling.

Good luck

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

gosh all you guys have little feet.

(size 8-9)
mimi

Size 9.

[Triskeliongirl]

I'm awaiting the arrival of a new Terry Isis which will have 650s, so I'll be able to offer an additional comparison by the end of the week (Yipee!). I loved how my Classic felt/fit so much that I wanted a 'go fast' bike from Terry.

I will be really interested to hear how you like this bike. When I ordered my 2005 titanium isis, I ordered the 17.5 rather than 19" to get the shorter top tube and 73 degree seat tube (i can't be set up on a 74 or greater sta like on the newer 19" frames). In my experience I can't be set up on most of the smaller sized 650 or 700c wheeled bikes, cuz either they steepen the seat tube too much for me (which only lengthens the reach since you need to slide your saddle back 1 cm per degree of STA to get the same position), or they have so much trail that the handling is too sluggish. So, I just picked up a 2003 steel isis, 19" but with the 700/24" wheel, 73 degree STA, 49 cm TT) for a song on ebay that I sent to a framebuilder to install s/s couplers and am building as a travel bike. In fact, she shipped today so I will let you know how I like her.

[GLC1968]

I will be really interested to hear how you like this bike. When I ordered my 2005 titanium isis, I ordered the 17.5 rather than 19" to get the shorter top tube and 73 degree seat tube (i can't be set up on a 74 or greater sta like on the newer 19" frames). In my experience I can't be set up on most of the smaller sized 650 or 700c wheeled bikes, cuz either they steepen the seat tube too much for me (which only lengthens the reach since you need to slide your saddle back 1 cm per degree of STA to get the same position), or they have so much trail that the handling is too sluggish. So, I just picked up a 2003 steel isis, 19" but with the 700/24" wheel, 73 degree STA, 49 cm TT) for a song on ebay that I sent to a framebuilder to install s/s couplers and am building as a travel bike. In fact, she shipped today so I will let you know how I like her.

I was a bit worried about the STA as I believe my 19' classic is a 73 degree and I love it. But the 19.5 tt on the classic is a bit too short for me unless I'm happy sitting quite upright (I have short legs/long torso/short arms). My 19.5 tt Specialized feels right in length, but it's got a 76 degree STA which really works on the girly bits on long rides (and makes the tt feel longer as you mentioned). I figured the 74 degree STA with the longer tt on the 19' Isis should be right. I just hope that 74 feels as much improved over 76 as I am guessing!

I'll definitely let you know how it works out!

[Triskeliongirl]

FYI, I too felt too bunched up on my 19" classic as it is packaged, but found when I put a longer stem on it (10 cm) and long reach drop bars (nitto noodle) it is perfect, and lets me feel more balanced on the bike than if I had a longer TT with short reach stem and bars. I am sure the 19" new isis will work for you, and yes, the 74 degree seat tube angle will give you a 2 cm shorter reach for the same size TT than bikes with 76. For me though, even with a 73 degree STA I had to search really hard to find a laid back enough seatpost, and push my saddle back as far as it will go to get a good KOP, so the 74 was just not an option. I also struggled with this decision (17.5 vs 19 Isis). At least terry lets you return the bike for a refund/exchange if you aren't happy, so you could always size down if necessary. A good shop should also swap out bars and stem if necessary to customize the fit. But, if you were able to get a good KOP on a 76 STA then you will have no problem on 74 (lucky you!) and the bike will definitely look better. Please let us know how you like it!!