It's official; I suck at climbing

[Meaux]

I am just glad to see I am not the only one wheezing up hills. I thought it was just that I started this road bike thing at a -cough- later age, and perhaps was suffering from emphysema or some other such lung disease. I too, have walked up some, but persistance is all, and I have improved. Which is good, since there aint no place to ride here in the Hudson Valley without going up a hill

Age has nothing to do with it. I'm 27 and riding up hills is probably one of the must painful things I've ever done physically. I hate that feeling of getting out of breath. I feel like I'm never going to breathe again! I look forward to the day I shoot right up a hill. That day will come in 30 years. HA!

[miffy'sFuji]

We have a lot of hills here. I started riding regularly in April and could not ride all of the way up the final half mile to my house without stopping. It's an elevation gain of about 230 ft. and ~8-12 percent grade in various stretches.

My suggestions are to take it as slowly as you possibly can (3 mph?) until you can make it the whole stretch. While you are pedaling, concentrate on deep breaths and your heart rate. I don't stand, especially if I have a long haul (and a heavy backpack). My helpful thing is to count to myself. At about 189 I'm all of the way up my hill. = )

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Well just to reassure a few of you....
I started riding 4 months ago at 52. The only exercise I ever did before that was walking about 3 miles a day for about 8 months before starting biking. Despite all that walking...
Nothing prepared me for how out of breath I got when biking up hills in the beginning. I was literally gasping for air, LOUD gasping breaths, and my heart pounding. This happened often, on most hills except for the smallest ones.
My DH (who usually rode with me back in the beginning) was SO patient while I kept stopping over and over to catch my breath and let my heart slow down. Like some of you, i suspected maybe I had asthma too, or heart disease or something!
As the weeks went by though, I gradually began to get less out of breath. My heart didn't race as much. After 2 months I could pedal up some hills I had to walk up before. I needed to stop and rest less often. My awful gasping slowly became just heavy labored breathing.
Now after 4 months, there are just a few hills around where I live that I can't pedal up, *mostly* without stopping. My heartbeat never feels uncomfortably pounding. My labored breathing has now become more like just deep mouth breathing.
And when going up steep hills, it's now usually my legs that will limit me rather than my breathlessness. That's a good thing I figure! I know I'm still not even halfway yet to the fitness level I would like to be at- maybe next year!
My DH and I would like to do some touring next year to visit friends in MA, VT, and NH. Right now my longest rides are 40 miles. When I can do 50 or 60 for several days in a row, I think I will be ready for that. Only a few months ago I was exhausted after 10 miles.
Just keep pedalling at whatever level you can. Pedal, pedal, pedal- it happens slowly...really!

[Cassandra_Cain]

I am just glad to see I am not the only one wheezing up hills. I thought it was just that I started this road bike thing at a -cough- later age, and perhaps was suffering from emphysema or some other such lung disease. I too, have walked up some, but persistance is all, and I have improved. Which is good, since there aint no place to ride here in the Hudson Valley without going up a hill

Momentary thread hijack....

See I knew there was a reason I liked your avatar here - I have the same bike!

Now back to hills

[Brandy]

I'm still trying to find my inner goat as well...I want to like climbing so badly, but while I'm doing it, I just keep thinking about how much I want to be at the top...like yesterday! That said, I've only been riding since May, so I know that my time will come. I do believe that I came in with an advantage because I had been Spinning for months and months before that and our gym starts a periodization schedule in January. We started with aerobic base building and after that we moved onto endurance and then on to strength...which was basically two months of profiles that focused on strengthening the legs through climbing. I'm convinced that this gave me an edge when I started cycling.

[Dogmama]

First off - a 17 - 20% grade is a mountain!!

1. Hit the botttom of the hill as fast as you can. Momentum is your friend.
2. Shift slightly before you need to shift so you don't blow out your legs.
3. If you are going to stand, shift to a slightly harder gear. When you sit, you'll have the easier gear to fall back on.
4. Ride hills. If you have to go slowly, do it slowly. Speed and endurance will come.

In the weight room you want to mimic cycling:

1. Do your exercises with single legs & switch them out. In other words, if you are doing lunges, alternate your lunges. Ditto with leg extensions, hamstring curls,etc.

2. To hit the glutes - bulgarian split squats. This is a great glute exercise. It is basically a lunge, except your back leg is on a support, so you cannot push off with it. It works quads and glutes. Obviously, you cannot switch these out easily.

Back up to a bench, chair, aerobic steps, no higher than knee height to begin. Stand about 3 feet from the bench.

Put one leg on the bench, shoe lace side down. You may need to be next to a wall or something to use for balance in the beginning.

Now, lunge. Do not let your knee go past your toes (or not very much.) Concentrate on bringing yourself up using your glutes.

[indysteel]

Bulgarian Split Squat? I'll have to try that.....

Although I wish all who responded were as good at climbing as they wanted to be, but all the same, I'm glad I'm not the only one who's struggling with it.

Brandy, I am so envious of your periodization spinning class. I will have to talk to the people at the Y where I go about offering something like that. If you have any more specifics, I'd love to hear about it....

Kate

[Cassandra_Cain]

If folks are lifting weights because they want to be more 'toned' or 'buff' or help preserve their bone density, etc - then cool, do it

I do not think that weight training, of any form, will help you with climbing on a bike though. Forces in endurance cycling, are quite low - comparable to climbing stairs 2 at a time even.

For sprint and track racing, I think weights can be very useful.

The reason a cyclist has a hard time on a climb is because their body cannot supply what her muscles need in order to keep working at a high rate due to cardiac output and oxygen delivery.

[indysteel]

If folks are lifting weights because they want to be more 'toned' or 'buff' or help preserve their bone density, etc - then cool, do it

I do not think that weight training, of any form, will help you with climbing on a bike though. Forces in endurance cycling, are quite low - comparable to climbing stairs 2 at a time even.

For sprint and track racing, I think weights can be very useful.

The reason a cyclist has a hard time on a climb is because their body cannot supply what her muscles need in order to keep working at a high rate due to cardiac output and oxygen delivery.

Interesting....I assumed that weight training to strengthen (at least) my glutes would help. Several of my cycling books speak favorably of weight training (in moderation) to help strengthen certain muscles that are needed to climb but which are hard to actually develop unless you climb a lot. From what I've read, climbing is a function of both aerobic capacity and leg strength? Not so?

[Cassandra_Cain]

Interesting....I assumed that weight training to strengthen (at least) my glutes would help. Several of my cycling books speak favorably of weight training (in moderation) to help strengthen certain muscles that are needed to climb but which are hard to actually develop unless you climb a lot. From what I've read, climbing is a function of both aerobic capacity and leg strength? Not so?

Hi....

You are familiar with Lance Armstrong I take it right? So a few years ago he did a blazingly fast time up in a Time Trial on a very famous and difficult mountain stage in the Tour de France, Alpe d'Huez. If you look at the watts he produced, take into account his cadence, then the 'force' he was putting out with both of his legs was equal to about 55 pounds. There are few adults I know of, who can't do 55 pounds with 2 legs, I mean just climbing stairs requires that much....and more.

Lance reportedly rode up that mountain at around 475 watts or so. You know what though? I am certain you could do 475 watts - just not for an hour or anything close to it obviously, and neither can I!

Also, consider when you sprint you are exerting far more force than on any long climb, so you already have the 'strength' to do those climbs. The reason you, me, or anyone else typically struggles on a climb is because our bodies cannot meet the demands of our muscles - delivering oxygen, fuel mix, etc...and why? Our lactate thresholds, Vo2max, etc aren't developed enough for what we are trying to do.

In addition, weight training doesn't nearly replicate the joint angles and velocities of cycling. That's along the lines of the whole specificity principle, so those gains are not going to be very transferrable.

I'm not telling you weight training is bad or that you shouldn't do it - there are lots of benefits to it.

What I do think is that it won't make you a better climber on a bike. It can make you a better track sprinter or pursuiter - though if you gain weight (from muscle gains), it can then cost you in climbing and other aspects of riding.

[eclectic]

Indysteel : I would really like to know what your trainer lays out for you. We don't have anyone around here to do that for cycling.

Interesting points CassandraCain - some rethinking material

Re: hills - I suck at them too, they are hard and haven't gotten any easier. I was riding one day last spring with a very experienced rider going up one of our steeper hills after already riding 40 miles (my longest ride at that time) I asked him how and when do hills get easy and he said NEVER, they may get easier but never easy.

I practiced hills everytime I went out this summer to build up my endurance. they never really got easier but eventually I never had to walk

One of the things I really learned over the summer is how and when to shift, how and when to stand up and timing when riding rollers (one hill after another)

shift before you think you need to - as soon as your cadence drops and you feel pressure shift down. Even in my lowest gear there are some hills around here that I can't spin up, I just do the best I can.

If I have a down hill first I get going as fast as I can then shift down as soon as I feel myself losing speed on the uphill.
- I pretty much start in my front big ring and about 3/4 up in back
- then I shift my front ring, not my back until i get to granny
- then i start shifting the back as needed.
- Depending on how much I have left of the hill adn how much energy I have left I stand to "top it off" (if it is a long grinder -1/2 mile or more I just sit and pedal)

As a last resort and if there is no traffic I have been known to switch back (like slalom skiing) across my lane of traffic ( I NEVER go into the oncoming lane going up hill)

Mentally I think : "this is only (5,10,15) minutes, of my life, it will soon be over - hills end" contrary to WIND

I figure if I am only going 6mph that is still faster than I can walk!

[aicabsolut]

I had my first encounter with what looked like some pretty decent hills a few weekends ago--and lots of them over a 25 mile loop (only 5 miles or so about 11 miles in gave my legs a break). I had gone up one long twice hill a week before, but nothing like this. My breathing did get shallower than I'd like, and I had a couple moments of panic where I thought I'd have to stop and didn't know how to do that without falling. I also discovered my poor standing and pedaling skills just made me go SLOWER when I stood rather than giving me more power. I didn't have a computer, but my overall time was better than I thought, considering I am conservative on the descents.

What helped me was forcing myself to keep a breathing rhythm, even if it bordered on gasping. When you are putting that much energy into your muscles, if you make sure you take deep breaths, you really don't need to gasp, but you've got to focus. I'm not sure how to explain it, but it was like when I used to sprint in track. At sprinting pace, I'd breathe slower than at just a fast run. More forcibly, but slower. I couldn't keep up that effort for long running, but while I was still trying to enlist every muscle to get me up a hill on a bike, that kind of effort was something I could sustain minutes longer than sprinting...it still felt predominantly anaerobic at times, but like more of a slow burn than an explosion of energy.

I want to second the advice only to look a little in front of you, not way up the hill. Take some breaks in smaller gears, but remember that a bigger gear will get you there faster. Sometimes, that's motivation enough to keep your legs spinning fast enough that you don't have to downshift. So is the panicked feeling that you might not make it. I was more afraid of toppling over in the event I had to give up and stop than I was of the rest of the climb, so I made sure I didn't stop. Adrenaline is a wonderful thing. Luckily, I haven't encountered a mountain.

[indysteel]

Just to add more to the dialogue. From VeloNews "training" archives:

Why can't I climb?

Dear Joe,
I'm a recreational roadie who spends some time on a mountain bike as well. I've been actively riding for four years. I put in 100-150 miles a week, with mostly mixed rides - by virtue of living in remote Wyoming, I don't get many flat, easy spins!

Here is my challenge. I feel fit, but I cannot climb hills. I'm 5'11", approximately 160 pounds, resting HR of 44, no chronic illness, and I can't ride up hills! I do well on the flats between any rises, which means I make my pulls when riding with a group, I can spin around 22-24 mph, and am reasonably comfortable at that pace for many miles. But as soon as the pitch increases I shut down.

My primary riding partner, an ex-pro, has quizzed me about what my body feels like when this happens. Basically, I shut down. I don't feel pain, but I cannot continue riding at a strong pace. My muscles feel like they are not getting enough oxygen and my RR goes very high (never measured). I slow down to a slower pace, and push hard to the top - once there, I can pick my pace back up and have to fight to get back to a group. This has not improved, even with many miles on my bike and with consistent riding.

So, do I just need to train differently (strength, cardio), eat differently (change my intake before riding), hydrate differently, lose weight, or is there some underlying cardiovascular issue that could predispose me to being a sloth on the hills?

Thanks for taking a stab.

J.R. in Wyoming

Dear J.R.,
Your inability to climb well can be improved if you find the key limiter and incorporate an objective plan to improve your fitness in progressive stages.

In most cases cyclists looking to climb better need to improve force and muscular endurance. You first need to have sufficient force in order to push hard on the pedals as the grade of the road increases. Ideally, the force-specific workouts are started within the preparation phase and end within the base phase. You can build force in the weight room with a cycling-specific routine and periodized program. Force can also be developed on the bike with low rpm (below 70 rpm), seated hill (or headwind) efforts. If you do force work on the bike, begin with two-minute efforts and progress, over several weeks, to six-minute intervals with full recoveries. Staying seated will also develop your hip flexors, which can help your climbing economy. Be cautious with these intervals if you have knee issues, or do not do them at all.

After you have developed sufficient force you can start to incorporate muscular endurance workouts by starting with six-minute intervals at heart-rate zone 3 (10-15 percent below lactate threshold). Gradually increase the number of reps within a workout over several weeks. Your goal is to progress to one solid effort of 45-60 minutes of zone 3 intensity. Once you have reached this goal, develop a workout once a week that incorporates heart-rate zone 4 (within 10 beats of lactate threshold) into six-minute intervals, with two-minute recoveries. This will dramatically improve your climbing ability if you have first developed force, economy and muscular endurance.

You need to determine which basic ability is lacking and what level of intensity you need to emphasize. The best way to improve your climbing is with a program that covers many months, starting with a preparation phase, moving to a base phase, and ending with a build period.

You mention body weight as a possible limiter. While I'm sure losing a few pounds might help, I don't think your 2.2 pounds per inch of body weight (you are 5'11" and 160 pounds) is of major concern. Assuming endurance is not an issue, and you have problems on climbs even early in a ride, this leaves the possibilities of economy (skills), force and muscular endurance to improve.

Thanks for inquiring with us. Good luck with your training.

Dirk Friel

[Cassandra_Cain]

I've read the trainingbible and am familiar with the Friel's (joe & dirk) methods. I definitely have issues with some of the things they suggest....both the idea of having riders put huge amounts of LSD training as a way of gaining fitness and this issue with weight training. The latter is the subject here, not the former so I won't get into that.

Also cadence is one component of power, but hardly the end all be all. There is no best cadence, and you'll notice riders doing TT's will use a high cadence to make their best power, while on climbs it typically lower, and in crits it is entirely different too. Training at 50, 80, or 100 is, in of and by itself - key phrase - not going to make you any fitter, though it can improve your leg speed or economy if those are issues.

Forces exerted in endurance cycling are very low - I didn't arbitrarily decide that or make it up, it is simple physics. I can give many examples of this via any of a number of my power files on long mountain climbs - and you can tell me if the forces were high.

If people want to lift weights, great, there's much in favor of the activity but IMO, it will not make you faster on a bike, except on a track!

Ok on to other topics, have fun with those hills!

[alforfun]

All I know is, I do lift weights. I can run up four flights of stairs at work without breathing hard. However....it is NOT FUN going up hills, but I think you get better mostly just by biking. At least thats the way it appears to me. So....hopefully Ill get more biking in before the big freeze sets in.