It's official; I suck at climbing

**eclectic** · 10-31-2006, 09:57 AM

Indysteel : I would really like to know what your trainer lays out for you. We don't have anyone around here to do that for cycling.

Interesting points CassandraCain - some rethinking material

Re: hills - I suck at them too, they are hard and haven't gotten any easier. I was riding one day last spring with a very experienced rider going up one of our steeper hills after already riding 40 miles (my longest ride at that time) I asked him how and when do hills get easy and he said NEVER, they may get easier but never easy.

I practiced hills everytime I went out this summer to build up my endurance. they never really got easier but eventually I never had to walk

One of the things I really learned over the summer is how and when to shift, how and when to stand up and timing when riding rollers (one hill after another)

shift before you think you need to - as soon as your cadence drops and you feel pressure shift down. Even in my lowest gear there are some hills around here that I can't spin up, I just do the best I can.

If I have a down hill first I get going as fast as I can then shift down as soon as I feel myself losing speed on the uphill.
- I pretty much start in my front big ring and about 3/4 up in back
- then I shift my front ring, not my back until i get to granny
- then i start shifting the back as needed.
- Depending on how much I have left of the hill adn how much energy I have left I stand to "top it off" (if it is a long grinder -1/2 mile or more I just sit and pedal)

As a last resort and if there is no traffic I have been known to switch back (like slalom skiing) across my lane of traffic ( I NEVER go into the oncoming lane going up hill)

Mentally I think : "this is only (5,10,15) minutes, of my life, it will soon be over - hills end" contrary to WIND

I figure if I am only going 6mph that is still faster than I can walk!

**aicabsolut** · 10-31-2006, 11:15 AM

I had my first encounter with what looked like some pretty decent hills a few weekends ago--and lots of them over a 25 mile loop (only 5 miles or so about 11 miles in gave my legs a break). I had gone up one long twice hill a week before, but nothing like this. My breathing did get shallower than I'd like, and I had a couple moments of panic where I thought I'd have to stop and didn't know how to do that without falling. I also discovered my poor standing and pedaling skills just made me go SLOWER when I stood rather than giving me more power. I didn't have a computer, but my overall time was better than I thought, considering I am conservative on the descents.

What helped me was forcing myself to keep a breathing rhythm, even if it bordered on gasping. When you are putting that much energy into your muscles, if you make sure you take deep breaths, you really don't need to gasp, but you've got to focus. I'm not sure how to explain it, but it was like when I used to sprint in track. At sprinting pace, I'd breathe slower than at just a fast run. More forcibly, but slower. I couldn't keep up that effort for long running, but while I was still trying to enlist every muscle to get me up a hill on a bike, that kind of effort was something I could sustain minutes longer than sprinting...it still felt predominantly anaerobic at times, but like more of a slow burn than an explosion of energy.

I want to second the advice only to look a little in front of you, not way up the hill. Take some breaks in smaller gears, but remember that a bigger gear will get you there faster. Sometimes, that's motivation enough to keep your legs spinning fast enough that you don't have to downshift. So is the panicked feeling that you might not make it. I was more afraid of toppling over in the event I had to give up and stop than I was of the rest of the climb, so I made sure I didn't stop. Adrenaline is a wonderful thing. Luckily, I haven't encountered a mountain.

**indysteel** · 10-31-2006, 11:27 AM

Just to add more to the dialogue. From VeloNews "training" archives:

Why can't I climb?

Dear Joe,
I'm a recreational roadie who spends some time on a mountain bike as well. I've been actively riding for four years. I put in 100-150 miles a week, with mostly mixed rides - by virtue of living in remote Wyoming, I don't get many flat, easy spins!

Here is my challenge. I feel fit, but I cannot climb hills. I'm 5'11", approximately 160 pounds, resting HR of 44, no chronic illness, and I can't ride up hills! I do well on the flats between any rises, which means I make my pulls when riding with a group, I can spin around 22-24 mph, and am reasonably comfortable at that pace for many miles. But as soon as the pitch increases I shut down.

My primary riding partner, an ex-pro, has quizzed me about what my body feels like when this happens. Basically, I shut down. I don't feel pain, but I cannot continue riding at a strong pace. My muscles feel like they are not getting enough oxygen and my RR goes very high (never measured). I slow down to a slower pace, and push hard to the top - once there, I can pick my pace back up and have to fight to get back to a group. This has not improved, even with many miles on my bike and with consistent riding.

So, do I just need to train differently (strength, cardio), eat differently (change my intake before riding), hydrate differently, lose weight, or is there some underlying cardiovascular issue that could predispose me to being a sloth on the hills?

Thanks for taking a stab.

J.R. in Wyoming

Dear J.R.,
Your inability to climb well can be improved if you find the key limiter and incorporate an objective plan to improve your fitness in progressive stages.

In most cases cyclists looking to climb better need to improve force and muscular endurance. You first need to have sufficient force in order to push hard on the pedals as the grade of the road increases. Ideally, the force-specific workouts are started within the preparation phase and end within the base phase. You can build force in the weight room with a cycling-specific routine and periodized program. Force can also be developed on the bike with low rpm (below 70 rpm), seated hill (or headwind) efforts. If you do force work on the bike, begin with two-minute efforts and progress, over several weeks, to six-minute intervals with full recoveries. Staying seated will also develop your hip flexors, which can help your climbing economy. Be cautious with these intervals if you have knee issues, or do not do them at all.

After you have developed sufficient force you can start to incorporate muscular endurance workouts by starting with six-minute intervals at heart-rate zone 3 (10-15 percent below lactate threshold). Gradually increase the number of reps within a workout over several weeks. Your goal is to progress to one solid effort of 45-60 minutes of zone 3 intensity. Once you have reached this goal, develop a workout once a week that incorporates heart-rate zone 4 (within 10 beats of lactate threshold) into six-minute intervals, with two-minute recoveries. This will dramatically improve your climbing ability if you have first developed force, economy and muscular endurance.

You need to determine which basic ability is lacking and what level of intensity you need to emphasize. The best way to improve your climbing is with a program that covers many months, starting with a preparation phase, moving to a base phase, and ending with a build period.

You mention body weight as a possible limiter. While I'm sure losing a few pounds might help, I don't think your 2.2 pounds per inch of body weight (you are 5'11" and 160 pounds) is of major concern. Assuming endurance is not an issue, and you have problems on climbs even early in a ride, this leaves the possibilities of economy (skills), force and muscular endurance to improve.

Thanks for inquiring with us. Good luck with your training.

Dirk Friel

**Cassandra_Cain** · 10-31-2006, 01:00 PM

I've read the trainingbible and am familiar with the Friel's (joe & dirk) methods. I definitely have issues with some of the things they suggest....both the idea of having riders put huge amounts of LSD training as a way of gaining fitness and this issue with weight training. The latter is the subject here, not the former so I won't get into that.

Also cadence is one component of power, but hardly the end all be all. There is no best cadence, and you'll notice riders doing TT's will use a high cadence to make their best power, while on climbs it typically lower, and in crits it is entirely different too. Training at 50, 80, or 100 is, in of and by itself - key phrase - not going to make you any fitter, though it can improve your leg speed or economy if those are issues.

Forces exerted in endurance cycling are very low - I didn't arbitrarily decide that or make it up, it is simple physics. I can give many examples of this via any of a number of my power files on long mountain climbs - and you can tell me if the forces were high.

If people want to lift weights, great, there's much in favor of the activity but IMO, it will not make you faster on a bike, except on a track!

Ok on to other topics, have fun with those hills!

**alforfun** · 10-31-2006, 02:47 PM

All I know is, I do lift weights. I can run up four flights of stairs at work without breathing hard. However....it is NOT FUN going up hills, but I think you get better mostly just by biking. At least thats the way it appears to me. So....hopefully Ill get more biking in before the big freeze sets in.

**Dogmama** · 10-31-2006, 05:55 PM

C-Cain - Lance lifted weights when he wasn't racing. Big weights. Since I started doing serious weight training, my climbing has improved remarkably. I was always pleased with my ability to climb, but now I can blast up hills.

I found the following articles that support weight training and cycling performance. This is from the Journal of Applied Physiology:

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/conten...ract/65/5/2285

The conclusion is:"These data do not demonstrate any negative performance effects of adding heavy-resistance training to ongoing endurance-training regimens. They indicate that certain types of endurance performance, particularly those requiring fast-twitch fiber recruitment, can be improved by strength-training supplementation."

This was in pub med:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Citation

The conclusion is: "These findings indicate that strength training improves cycle endurance performance independently of changes in VO2max. This improved performance appears to be related to increases in LT and leg strength." (LT= lactate threshold). So, apparently they found that strength training does increase lactate threshold.

I think you'll find that competitive cyclists do strength training in the off season. The theory of specificity is important, but augmenting training with other modalities is the rule rather than the exception. Case in point: Lance increased his ability to cycle in thin mountain air by sleeping in a special tent that reduced the amount of oxygen he received. The theory of specificity would require him to endlessly blast up mountain hills.

I can sit in the drops longer because I do bench presses & tricep exercises. I can climb longer because I do squats which strength my glutes and lower back. When my muscles don't quit, I can work on my lung capacity. And I become a better cyclist, and a LOT better at climbing hills. And, I wasn't a bad hill climber to start with (she says modestly!)

**Kathi** · 10-31-2006, 07:07 PM

I'm piping in here mainly because I know the type of hills you are talking about. I used to live in Cincinnati and have done many miles in the Southwestern Ohio, Kentucky and hilly parts of Indiana.

Many of the hills you will encounter are "rollers" which means they are short downhills with short uphills. It's tempting to coast down those hills but don't. Keep your pace by spinning down them. This will give you enough momentum to make it up the other side. Like Eclectic said, when you start to lose momentum start shifting your big chainring. You may spin a little and think you are in the wrong ring but your speed will catch up. Then start to shift the rear cassette.

Hill climbing takes practice and timing the shifting. If you have a heart rate monitor use it and learn what your hill climbing heart rate should be and use it to pace yourself.

Yes, I agree that hill climbing is strength and endurance. I recently did Bicycle Ride Across Tennessee and Cycle North Carolina. Neither ride was particularly hard hill wise but I'm recovering from ACL surgery this past Feb and didn't get to build my endurance for the hills. I made it through the 80+ days of Brat, (with a meltdown at 60 miles everyday) but on the first day of CNC the hills were much harder and I began walking more and more of them. After 44 miles I gave up and sagged in. I was devastated! The only other time I sagged in on a tour was this year on Candisc and that was due to 20+ mph winds.

From that experience I learned that I didn't have the endurance and power I had before my injury. It was a very hard pill to swallow because I'm a fairly good climber and came to terms with hills many years ago. But I felt like I'm a beginner again and having to start all over. My only consolation was that I was 7+ months from a pretty tough knee surgery and I still need time to build my endurance.

Don't get discouraged with hills, they will become easier as you get more experienced. Just remember that they are more techinque than anything. I look back at the hills I walked many years ago on the Horsey Hundred in Georgetown Ky and wonder why I had to walk them.

You have lots of opportunities to do some great organized hilly rides in Oh, Ky. and Ind. The cycle clubs in Cincy, Louisville, Lexington have some great rides. The Dayton, Oh cycle clubs have some good rides too with fewer hills.

A used to be good hill climber.

**Cassandra_Cain** · 10-31-2006, 08:14 PM

I guess you wish to continue this discussion, so be it.