Bike Recommendation!

[KnottedYet]

Switching the crankset to a 105 triple (he believes the reason I have trouble shifting the front up to the big ring is NOT because of the levers, but because the factory bikes in my price range come with crap cranksets)

I'm confused about something. (DebW or Velogirl or one of the other bike mechanics will be along to enlighten me soon.)

I'm switching out a crankset and FD on my Waterford to a compact so I can get lower gear ranges for the way I ride on the hills we have around here. So I've been reading up on it, and have just enough knowlege to be dangerous but not enough to be helpful.

I've been under the impression that *shifting* issues are caused by the front derailleur and *gearing* issues are the crankset.

If you're having trouble *shifting*, wouldn't it be cheaper just to change out the FD to a 105 and leave the crankset alone? (If you're having trouble pedalling because of the gear ratios, that would indicate switching out the crankset?)

A new crankset is going to cost me around $200. A new FD is around $50. (Campy Veloce)

If you love the bike, can he just switch out the FD and sell you the bike for $665 instead of $865?

Then you'll be able to save some money so eventually you can switch out the rest of the drivetrain to a 105 3 chainring x 10 spd cassette if that's what you really want. Meanwhile you'll be riding!

(and I'm still confused about levers vs FD. Cuz going to the big ring is a function of the lever, while going to the smaller rings is a function of the spring in the FD. 105's have better springs so they drop down gears better, but how does that help the upshift? Does the 105 have a better backplate? And if he just fiddles with the H-limit screw on the FD the bike has now, couldn't he adjust the range of the current FD so it's easier to get the chain onto the big ring? That's FREE and saves you even more money for upgrades later!)

[dianne_1234]

I've been under the impression that *shifting* issues are caused by the front derailleur and *gearing* issues are the crankset.

...(and I'm still confused about levers vs FD. Cuz going to the big ring is a function of the lever, while going to the smaller rings is a function of the spring in the FD. 105's have better springs so they drop down gears better, but how does that help the upshift? Does the 105 have a better backplate? And if he just fiddles with the H-limit screw on the FD the bike has now, couldn't he adjust the range of the current FD so it's easier to get the chain onto the big ring? That's FREE and saves you even more money for upgrades later!)

Hi Knotted,

As usual, it's more than one thing.

You're right that *gearing* isses can be addressed by changing chain ring sizes (the crank set), but the cranks also affect shifting: the mechanical features designed into the chain rings also help the front derailleur move the chain among 'rings.

The Lemond Etape is listed with Bontrager cranks; they work great on our tandem, but in my experience Shimano chain rings really do make a noticeable difference in front shifting performance.

Going to bigger rings is a function of the system, including the lever of course, the shape of the derailleur's plate (you mention both), but also the shape and lateral stiffness of the chain, the presence (or lack thereof) and design of the pins 'n' ramps on the chain rings, cable and housing stiffness and friction, frame angles, chain line, etc. etc. And adjustment of course!

Going to smaller rings is a function of the derailleur spring, plus presence and design of release teeth on the crank, matched set of chain rings (so the chain engages the smaller ring instead of riding on top), and most of the design features listed above, including good adjustment of course.

So a good mechanic *may* be able to fiddle with the H-limit screw, but that's only a small element of good front shifting.

HTH!

[quint41]

Hi Knotted,

Going to bigger rings is a function of the system, including the lever of course, the shape of the derailleur's plate (you mention both), but also the shape and lateral stiffness of the chain, the presence (or lack thereof) and design of the pins 'n' ramps on the chain rings, cable and housing stiffness and friction, frame angles, chain line, etc. etc. And adjustment of course!

HTH!

Thanks to both of you for the lesson in mechanics. I have a lot to learn!

Yes, that is exactly what the mechanic showed me -- the pins and ramps on the rings, and how the design of the pins and ramps on the 105 makes the chain move up more easily than on the Bontrager, which he also showed me.

Coincidentally, I rode the bike of a guy in my Wednesday group around the parking lot last week (his bike is a Nishiki -- I've never heard of that brand), and I had no trouble at all shifting his. Then I got the recommendation from the LBS and the mechanic suggested the 105's, and just yesterday I relayed this info to the guy and he said his bike is all 105. Yesterday, I rode a Specialized WSD around the parking lot and couldn't shift that up to the big ring to save my life. Pressing the hell out of the lever, finger breaking pressure, listening to it rachet around down there, but it would NOT move up. She has Tiagra deraillieurs and the crankset has the Shimano logo on it, but I can't tell what model. That's the second Specialized WSD (different models) I've tried that I couldn't shift.

I'm off work today, so will be visiting a couple of LeMond dealers to see about test riding.

The Etape that he's proposing to sell me with the swap outs including labor and tax out the door is $916. I'll see what the shops are selling the Tourmalot for.

[KnottedYet]

I had a white Nishiki in the 70's. I loved that bike with a burning passion. It was the first "real" bike I had and I rode it like a madwoman all the time and everywhere. It disappeared, and I replaced it with a Peugot.

Spending that much to upgrade the Etape, yeah, I'm leaning with Kathi on this one toward buying a higher end bike instead. You're looking at paying half again the price ($629 is what I found) for the Etape at your LBS. Putting that money toward a Tourmalet would buy you a lot of other improvements in a "bundle".

[xeney]

I don't think Nishikis have been made since the 90s so that was probably an older version of 105 than you'd see in stores now. (Nishiki was under the same umbrella as Raleigh for a while, but I don't think those had any real connection to the original Nishikis, and they disappeared altogether about five or six years ago. My favorite bike is my converted '84 Nishiki, but I never tried to shift it!)

[DebW]

Lots of good thoughts and ideas so far. When the shop switches components on a brand new bike, you pay the difference in the old and new parts, not the full cost of the new parts. If you ride the bike and decide to swap later, you forfeit most of the value of the old parts. Upgrading when you buy the bike is usually cheaper than upgrading later.

In addition to all the things mentioned so far that affect front derailleur shifting, the gaps between chainrings are also important. That is, the bigger the gaps, the more difficult that shift will be, and thus the more value in a well-designed crankset and front derailleur. A 46-52 double would shift pretty well with even a cheap derailleur and crankset, but a 36-52 or any triple won't. So in effect it is the trend towards triples and compact double on low-end bikes that is causing alot of poor shifting.

[quint41]

Well, I went out and test road the Lemonds yesterday.

Oh my gosh, can I fall in love with a bike? Rode the Etape first, and found it VERY comfortable, smooth, agile, quick. Could not shift that TruVativ crankset up to the big ring, though. Then I took out the Tourmelat. That is a beautiful bike! And, yes, it shifted like a charm with the 105 crankset.

I have no doubt the Tourmalet is the superior bike. But the Etape was wonderful. I have to say, both bikes were the best I've ridden so far, and I've ridden a lot of bikes. With the Tourmalet retailing for $1,300 in this area, that is out of my price range. Maybe someday when I don't have to face my kids' college bills anymore, but for now it will be the Etape with some upgrades. After riding my 10 year old, 34 lb. mountain bike up hills, I will be the happiest woman in Connecticut with the Etape!

Thanks to everyone!

[pooks]

Congrats! Must feel great, eh?

I was looking them up -- very cool bike!

So, anybody got any idea why the one picture on the LBS page:

http://bikemart.com/itemdetails.cfm?...gId=39&id=1048

Is different from the one on the Lemond page?

http://2006.lemondbikes.com/2006_bikes/etape.shtml

Or does available in black/white mean black or white, and the LBS shows the white version?

Oh, sorry -- the LBS site is confusing. It does come in other colors.

[Kathi]

I'm confused about something. (DebW or Velogirl or one of the other bike mechanics will be along to enlighten me soon.)

I'm switching out a crankset and FD on my Waterford to a compact so I can get lower gear ranges for the way I ride on the hills we have around here. So I've been reading up on it, and have just enough knowlege to be dangerous but not enough to be helpful.

I've been under the impression that *shifting* issues are caused by the front derailleur and *gearing* issues are the crankset.

If you're having trouble *shifting*, wouldn't it be cheaper just to change out the FD to a 105 and leave the crankset alone? (If you're having trouble pedalling because of the gear ratios, that would indicate switching out the crankset?)
A new crankset is going to cost me around $200. A new FD is around $50. (Campy Veloce)

If you love the bike, can he just switch out the FD and sell you the bike for $665 instead of $865?

Then you'll be able to save some money so eventually you can switch out the rest of the drivetrain to a 105 3 chainring x 10 spd cassette if that's what you really want. Meanwhile you'll be riding!

(and I'm still confused about levers vs FD. Cuz going to the big ring is a function of the lever, while going to the smaller rings is a function of the spring in the FD. 105's have better springs so they drop down gears better, but how does that help the upshift? Does the 105 have a better backplate? And if he just fiddles with the H-limit screw on the FD the bike has now, couldn't he adjust the range of the current FD so it's easier to get the chain onto the big ring? That's FREE and saves you even more money for upgrades later!)

For the $300 difference in price between the Tourmalet and the Etape its worth it to upgrade to the Tourmalet. By the time you pay for labor, it's going to cost a lot more than $300 to try to upgrade to 105. Besides, the Tourmalet should have a better quality wheelset.