Floyd-Results are back

[tulip]

Just as I have suspected all along. Floyd is a plant.

[Geonz]

I don't like a world where *everybody* cheats ...
... but in that subculture of the world, it's not considered cheating. (THat's one reason people can deny "cheating" with a straight face, could easily say "I won because of my training" and be telling the truth... ) Sorta like the way in some cultures, bribery is simply an essential part of the culture. No, it's not nice, it's not ideal. It is REAL.
Do you think that college athletes study hard to get those grades in those Division I schools? Drop in and find out. Heck, I was a walk-on non-scorer on a Division II swim team and I automatically got student jobs at the pool. I *know* the breaks some of the football guys got - again, this wasn't even the "big time."
So, if the reason for not thinking he's guilty is "it doesn't make sense for him to do that" - I would have to beg to differ. It's a team sport; you don't want to let down your team. All you have to do is not ask too many hard questions! It's not like you have to make some great decision to cross the line... you'd have to make all kinds of repeated decisions ... oh, and prob'ly lose races... to keep getting on the other side of the line. And it woulnd't be considered being a noble individual ... nobody would tell you "you're doing the right thing." To them, it's not cheating, it's what you do to be a better rider.

[chickwhorips]

so from what i gather from this thread is....

A) test results are in

B) no one knows for sure this is an "official" result

am i following this right?

from what FL and his lawyers said they knew that "B" was going to come in with the same results. the problem i'm having is that it was a synthetic testosterone found. if it was high and everything was natural, then i would have an easier time beliving he is innocent.

maybe he is a plant or just an alien from another world.....

[Dogmama]

If he is a plant, somebody needs to trim his ears.

I thought the whole point of the second test taking such a long time was that they were checking for exogenous testosterone.

[7rider]

For what it's worth....
I don't think Floyd is a cheat.
I don't think he's a "regular" cheater.
If he were, I think previous tests would have shown it, and they did not. Subsequent tests do not show cheating. It all hinges on 1 test done after Stage 17.
I think he was distraught over bonking on Stage 16. Terribly distraught, feeling like he just blew the Tour, something he worked soooo hard for.
Man, that has got to hurt.
So....Dr. Feel Good comes along and says..."Floyd, my man. I can fix that. Wear this little patch on your privates and it'll help you recover. Totally natural (from plants???). No need to do anything. Show up on drug tests??? Nah...not to worry. And you can honestly say you never "ingested" anything."
So Floyd, being the good soldier he is, does as he's told and POW! What a stunning comeback in Stage 17! Epic, dude.
...and maybe because he takes cortisone, or thyroid meds, or because he had that shot and a beer, it DOES show up in his drug test....it's amplified or something.
And now he blew the Tour...everything he's worked so hard for goes up in a puff of smoke.
Man, that's got to hurt.
Just my theory anyway......

[velogirl]

What makes me think he's guilty is his incredible surge in performance from last year. He won FOUR tours this year. Four. That's incredible don't ya think? It was chalked up to intense training. Did he hold back until Lance retired? I doubt that. The two really don't like each other all that much. Or did he win Le Tour because the big name contenders were out from the Spanish investigation? I guess that could be the case too. I don't know, the whole thing just smells to me.

Especially at the pro level, cycling is a multi-year sport. Floyd began working with Allen Lim last year (one of the rockstars of power-training and exercise physiology, and in my opinion one of the best coaches out there). I worked with Allen earlier this year and we discussed Floyd's training. He's focused his training for many seasons on 2006, meaning that he's trained through all these other races with the intention of peaking this year (when Lance had retired). That's not completely unusual (to have a multi-year cycle). Consider Olympic athletes. They may have smaller goal competitions, but their full training cycle is focused on one competition that's held every four years.

Until last year, Floyd wasn't a team leader either. He was a domestique for Lance on USPS and was expected to lieutenant for Tyler Hamilton on Phonak last year (until Tyler got the boot). Once Tyler was out, Floyd was moved into a team leader position.

It's not unusual for pro athletes to spend many years (a decade in Floyd's case) developing their potential. In cycling, an athlete gains experience, skills, works his way up the domestic and then international team structure, gains experience in different classics and stage races, serves as a domestique, points winner or stage winner in the TdF, and as the race leader in smaller tours before he'd even consider a goal such as winning TdF. Think about it. There are almost 200 racers in TdF, but in reality, only a handful of them are truly contenders to win the race in any given year.

[velogirl]

Think of it this way. You go to the doctor, and you take a test that says your TSH levels are above normal. You are feeling sluggish and perhaps other confirmatory tests are ordered. Based on the totality of the evidence, your doctor diagnoses you with a thyroid condition and prescribes thyroid hormone. Will you ever really know that you have a thyroid condition? Of course!

Neither here nor there (since I know you simply used thyroid as an example), but as someone mis-diagnosed as hyper-thyroid (based on testing only TSH) when in reality I was hypo (Hashimoto's) and had thyca, I can argue that there were additional tests my docs should've done (free T-3 and free T-4) that would have given them additional information to diagnose me correctly. I don't have a high level of confidence in labs or testing or docs. If my doc didn't have complete information, what's to say that the French labs have complete information in this case?

I'm not a scientist, but my understanding is that there is a question about the validity of the T/E ratio test, so much so that it's likely WADA will throw out the test in the next update.

Banned substance lists change all the time (once a year from WADA; national associations sometimes take longer to follow suit). And the testing and technology for detecting banned substances also changes. New tests (like the T/E test) are introduced and later found to be faulty. Landis and his lawyers are counting on this, I think.

I know science is as black & white as we can get, but there's still some gray around the edges if you ask me.

[velogirl]

What bothers me now, is his lawers are making their arguments on lack of due process (leaking results to the press) vs whether he actually did it (i.e. see latest articles at velonews.com), and seem to be trying to salvage his reputation by putting questions that aren't there about the science in the minds of a public that doesn't understand the science.

Actually, I don't think this argument will be his primary defense. Floyd's case is now turned over to the US governing body (USACycling) -- USADA oversees the process for USAC. There is a very stringent appeal process.

I think the lawyers are working on a libel suit (or due process or whatever). This would be completely separate and in addition to the doping appeal and my guess is that it will be directed at McQuaid/UCI, the French lab, and probably L'Equipe (the paper who first published the findings and is rumored to be in cahoots with the source at the lab. I think they're trying to recoup some of the financial loss Floyd will suffer if he's stripped of his title.

I do think there are questions about the science. Dozens of folks from the cycling industry and the sports science world have been quoted as questioning the validity of the T/E test. Of course, since all pros are dopers, they're probably all in cahoots, right?

[wannaduacentury]

I was expecting the B sample to be positive b/c I believe they(naysayers) wanted it to. If he did it, he should pay the penalty. But then again, they say Lance doped for the last 7 tours and now they found fresh blood to attack as well. So they'll dog him til he cracks. I want to believe he didn't dope, now I'm not so sure and the testing people I don't trust.

[Triskeliongirl]

I'm not a scientist, but my understanding is that there is a question about the validity of the T/E ratio test, so much so that it's likely WADA will throw out the test in the next update.

I agree there are problems with the T/E ratio test as I stated in my other posts. Its the mass spec result (carbon isotope analysis) that makes it definitive, and proves the testosterone was synthtetic.

BTW, I used hypothyroidism in my example, cuz I too have hashimoto's and that is why I said one does multiple tests, TSH, other confirmatory tests (i.e. T3, T4), and looks for other symptoms, i.e. sluggish behavior.

[restrec]

It is the same process we witnessed with Tyler and the desire to lie and lie. All high performance athletes have media advisors who compose the phrases they have to articulate when they face the media. Landis's is pretty good and he adds a few of his personal words. But at the end....Better read this article.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...x.html?cnn=yes

[Running Mommy]

restrec-
Excuse me if I sound a bit snippy, but I must ask... Why is it that the only threads you have replied to are ones that involve the Floyd Landis case, and why are you so negative?? While I try not to live my life behind rose colored glasses, I also try not to be the judge, jury and executioner.
Just like everyone else that comes to this board, we have invited you to post on the "getting to know you thread" and you have yet to do that. Yes, of course that is your perogative, but I have to wonder why?
Please understand that this board is by and large a very positive supportive community, So when someone comes to the board with only negative things to say they are not really welcomed with open arms.
Again, I invite you to join in on the "getting to know you" thread in the open topics section.
Stay safe
Denise

[chickwhorips]

restrec-
Excuse me if I sound a bit snippy, but I must ask... Why is it that the only threads you have replied to are ones that involve the Floyd Landis case, and why are you so negative?? While I try not to live my life behind rose colored glasses, I also try not to be the judge, jury and executioner.
Just like everyone else that comes to this board, we have invited you to post on the "getting to know you thread" and you have yet to do that. Yes, of course that is your perogative, but I have to wonder why?
Please understand that this board is by and large a very positive supportive community, So when someone comes to the board with only negative things to say they are not really welcomed with open arms.
Again, I invite you to join in on the "getting to know you" thread in the open topics section.
Stay safe
Denise

i second that.

i feel uncomfortable reading your posts. i understand everyone has a right to their opinion, but you seem to be very harsh.

[velogirl]

Maybe RESTREC is really Greg Lemond -- another sweet, cheery Landis fan who has nothing positive to say!

[Kalidurga]

You are perfectly right !! At last I hear someone who uses his head and not the heart and looks at the facts as Facts.

Could be just semantics, but pretty much everyone else here uses feminine gender references, seeing as how it's a female-oriented forum and all. I'm beginning to wonder how long it's going to be before Greg L., uh, I mean restrec, gets him, uh, I mean her-self banned.

Regarding the Floyd situation, this naive chick is still waiting. Yes, the tests were both positive. Yes, he wouldn't be the first boy-scout-seeming bike racer to lie. But the fat lady hasn't sung yet, as far as I'm concerned. I'm willing to wait and see what form of defense Floyd and his doctors come up with. If it's something like Tyler's chimera, then I'll begin to doubt. But until then, I choose to reserve judgement on the whole case. To me, that's the most rational course of action.