Floyd-Results are back

[Triskeliongirl]

My question is this-will we ever know for certain? It appears that one can argue either way for the test results.

Yes we will, because we have SCIENCE. Yes, the lawyers are paid to make these arguments, but the test results don't lie. A process has begun, and there are likely to be more tests and examination of the results by scientific experts. So, yes in the end we will know. It is true that any one test might be flawed, but already we have the T/E ratio test done twice, we have the mass spec. result, and we have his extraordinary performance. While it is true that each of these things indicidually could have other explanations, when considered together a very solid case has formed

Think of it this way. You go to the doctor, and you take a test that says your TSH levels are above normal. You are feeling sluggish and perhaps other confirmatory tests are ordered. Based on the totality of the evidence, your doctor diagnoses you with a thyroid condition and prescribes thyroid hormone. Will you ever really know that you have a thyroid condition? Of course!

I know a lot of you out there want to believe Floyd, but this is a situation where I think we have to believe the scientists over the lawyers.

[Delta7]

Results seem inconsistent, if the T is normal. What would cause the low E? Is the actual test result published or do we have to rely on the news?

Cheers.

[betagirl]

Just a thought on labs and science.

I have crohn's disease in my terminal ileum, where vitamin B12 is absorbed. During my fun diagnostic process, which included lots of tests that all pretty much said either "yes," "well maybe" or were negative, I had a Schilling test done to see why my vitamin B12 levels were so low. Long story short is that test came back fine, I absorb vitamin B12 just like any other healthy person. Yet my levels get dangerously low if I don't maintain a regiment of monthly injections. So while the test says I do, I obviously don't absorb B12. Taking oral supplements doesn't have the same effect as the shots. So something is off there. Have I repeated the test? Nah. Why bother really.

Just a little tidbit about test results I still think he's guilty.

[Triskeliongirl]

Results seem inconsistent, if the T is normal. What would cause the low E? Is the actual test result published or do we have to rely on the news?

The ratio of T/E is considered more reliable than the actual T level as an indication of doping, since the absolute amount of testosterone in his urine can be influenced by the amount of liquid he drinks, but no matter how hard he tries to dilute it out, he can't change the ratio of testsosterone to epitestosterone. The ratio test is based on the fact that since epitestosterone is the precurser of testosterone, if the testosterone is naturally made in the body, this should be balanced by a similar amount of epitestosterone, for most people this ratio is 1:1, UCI allows up to 4:1 and his was 11:1. When one supplements with testosterone, the amount of testosterone relative to epitestosterone is elevated, although some avoid detection by also taking epitestosterone along with testosterone. Now it is true that some people have abnormally high T/E ratios naturally, but supposedly his other 5 samples tested at the tour showed normal ratios. It is true that alcohol consumption can effect the ratio, but why did first he claim to have had one beer, then all of a sudden he also had some Jack D, etc. (it takes a lot of alcohol to elevate the TE ratio). But, because of these issues if all they had was the elevated T/E ratio it may have been difficult to make a definitive case. But, the mass spec allows them to detect subtle differences in the isotope of carbon found in plant sterols vs human sterols. Since plant sterols are used to make testosterone in the lab, the finding of carbon isotopes in a ratio found in plants and not people is very convincing.

What bothers me now, is his lawers are making their arguments on lack of due process (leaking results to the press) vs whether he actually did it (i.e. see latest articles at velonews.com), and seem to be trying to salvage his reputation by putting questions that aren't there about the science in the minds of a public that doesn't understand the science.

[Delta7]

"why did first he claim to have had one beer, then all of a sudden he also had some Jack D"

First time I heard of the beer, whiskey was also mentioned, but anywho, so your saying the ratio and not the actual level of T is what is manipulated and thus cause a performance increase? I don't know science, but I do know numbers, so this is interesting.

Cheers.

[Triskeliongirl]

" so your saying the ratio and not the actual level of T is what is manipulated and thus cause a performance increase? I don't know science, but I do know numbers, so this is interesting. Cheers.

What I am saying, is that if one takes exogenous testosterone, 2 things will help, the absolute level of testosterone will go up, as will the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone. Floyd is arguing that since his absolute level of testosterone isn't above normal he didn't do it, however, the absolute level in urine is heavily influenced by hydration state, so this doesn't get him off the hook. However, had it also been high, it would be one more strike against him. That is why I read that some athletes dope with a patch containing both T and E that they place on their scrotum after a hard day for recovery. In general the amounts are low enough to not effect the total amount of T, or upset the ratio, and therefore go undetected.

[velogirl]

What bothers me now, is his lawers are making their arguments on lack of due process (leaking results to the press) vs whether he actually did it (i.e. see latest articles at velonews.com), and seem to be trying to salvage his reputation by putting questions that aren't there about the science in the minds of a public that doesn't understand the science.

Actually, I don't think this argument will be his primary defense. Floyd's case is now turned over to the US governing body (USACycling) -- USADA oversees the process for USAC. There is a very stringent appeal process.

I think the lawyers are working on a libel suit (or due process or whatever). This would be completely separate and in addition to the doping appeal and my guess is that it will be directed at McQuaid/UCI, the French lab, and probably L'Equipe (the paper who first published the findings and is rumored to be in cahoots with the source at the lab. I think they're trying to recoup some of the financial loss Floyd will suffer if he's stripped of his title.

I do think there are questions about the science. Dozens of folks from the cycling industry and the sports science world have been quoted as questioning the validity of the T/E test. Of course, since all pros are dopers, they're probably all in cahoots, right?

[ChainsOflove]

In an interview way last spring, Floyd talked about how his training was completly changed and his VO2 Max results were rivaling those of L.A.

I don't think his improvment is from Doping.

It just seems that floyd is an unlikely one to drug up. Somethings not right about it.

[ChainsOflove]

I don't understand why Greg Lemond feels its his role to discredit all these other U.S. riders. I don't think its the right thing to do, as Americans they should not trash each other.

Clearly he's bitter becuase he is now old and fat, and LA and even TY made WAY more money than him. I mean you don't hear Bernard Hinault or Eddie trashing riders. GL should shut up.

[Tuckervill]

I agree with you. What shocks me is that so many of you don't.

I'm just not that cynical. I generally trust people until they prove they can't be trusted. I think this is where me and a lot of people part ways, but that's okay. I can't live in a world where I believe EVERYONE cheats, where everyone is suspect. Just can't.

Karen

[snapdragen]

I'm just not that cynical. I generally trust people until they prove they can't be trusted. I think this is where me and a lot of people part ways, but that's okay. I can't live in a world where I believe EVERYONE cheats, where everyone is suspect. Just can't.

Karen

+1!

[tulip]

Just as I have suspected all along. Floyd is a plant.

[Geonz]

I don't like a world where *everybody* cheats ...
... but in that subculture of the world, it's not considered cheating. (THat's one reason people can deny "cheating" with a straight face, could easily say "I won because of my training" and be telling the truth... ) Sorta like the way in some cultures, bribery is simply an essential part of the culture. No, it's not nice, it's not ideal. It is REAL.
Do you think that college athletes study hard to get those grades in those Division I schools? Drop in and find out. Heck, I was a walk-on non-scorer on a Division II swim team and I automatically got student jobs at the pool. I *know* the breaks some of the football guys got - again, this wasn't even the "big time."
So, if the reason for not thinking he's guilty is "it doesn't make sense for him to do that" - I would have to beg to differ. It's a team sport; you don't want to let down your team. All you have to do is not ask too many hard questions! It's not like you have to make some great decision to cross the line... you'd have to make all kinds of repeated decisions ... oh, and prob'ly lose races... to keep getting on the other side of the line. And it woulnd't be considered being a noble individual ... nobody would tell you "you're doing the right thing." To them, it's not cheating, it's what you do to be a better rider.

[chickwhorips]

so from what i gather from this thread is....

A) test results are in

B) no one knows for sure this is an "official" result

am i following this right?

from what FL and his lawyers said they knew that "B" was going to come in with the same results. the problem i'm having is that it was a synthetic testosterone found. if it was high and everything was natural, then i would have an easier time beliving he is innocent.

maybe he is a plant or just an alien from another world.....

[wannaduacentury]

I was expecting the B sample to be positive b/c I believe they(naysayers) wanted it to. If he did it, he should pay the penalty. But then again, they say Lance doped for the last 7 tours and now they found fresh blood to attack as well. So they'll dog him til he cracks. I want to believe he didn't dope, now I'm not so sure and the testing people I don't trust.