Ullrich out of TdF!!!!

[slinkedog]

You know, I just wonder how ALL these guys make a conscious decision to go and get doped up... right before the race... when they know they are going to get tested.

Doesn't it just seem like a no-brainer to not dope up?

This whole thing has been brewing since the end of May... these guys were implicated when a Spanish doctor was arrested and his files were raided (I think that's how it went down.) Apparently he has files on all the ousted riders. Tyler Hamilton has also been implicated.

[Eden]

I find it rather sad that there is a guilty until proven otherwise and then under suspicion for the rest of your career attitude about the whole thing.

The evidence that these guys were cheating seems pretty thin to me - how hard would it be to fabricate those documents? and the list of cheaters released seem tailored made for maxium sesationalism. They (the media) are doing more to convince me that the riders are exposed to a witch hunt at all times than they are convincing me that there is mass cheating going on. These guys are exposed to more drug testing than anyone else I can think of - especially if they win. Every time they finish in the top 10 (? I think it may be more than just the top 10) they get tested. Sometimes they wake them in the middle of the night and drag them out to get tested. They call their homes in the off season - come and get tested!! If all of the top guys were cheating they would catch more of them.

I guess I need to read up a bit more, but I'm not ready to condemn all of those guys just yet. I really wish the directors had the guts to stand up and say that they trust their men and they are not going to voluntarily pull them out without more concrete evidence.

[Susan Otcenas]

Well, I'm completely floored by this news. I remember the Festina scandal in 1998 and what a bad light that cast on the sport. One would have thought that after that, cycling would have made a serious effort to clean itself up, but here we are, 8 years later, with yet another doping scandal.

On the bright side, cheating is cheating, and I don't want to watch an event full of cheaters. I want to watch an event full of clean riders, who have trained their bodies and minds to achieve greatness, without having to cheat.

Yes, this is terrible, but what other sport is attacking doping head on? Barry Bonds is still playing baseball - if he were a cyclist he'd be long gone. Yes, people cheat, but we should be proud to be involved ina sport that actually has serious consequences for the cheaters who get caught.

So, Susan, Can we get a "do over" of our TdF predictions?

Yes. We've modified our contest page to allow anyone who entered prior to 8:40 a.m. PST to enter one more time.


Susan

[cusepack]

As I mentioned in another thread, one of my friends is in France for the Tour. He's been sending me updates, and says it's total chaos over there, and it's not over yet - as far as others being suspended. He's disappointed as he's a Jan fan, but he said, and I agree, that the race is wide open now.

I'll keep you posted

[Fredwina]

Yes. We've modified our contest page to allow anyone who entered prior to 8:40 a.m. PST to enter one more time.
Susan

Thank you! I was waiting just to make sure. I thought something like this was brewing....

[Lenusik]

All this is rather bad for the sport and fans. The Tour will be weak this year because of this story. I am glad that they caught them but I am sad that we will not see any drama this year. I doubt it.

[velogirl]

Cheating is cheating.....that's the bottom line. And in the case of some riders, lying is lying.

If doping increases the performance of one rider 30-40%, other riders are forced to do the same just to compete at the same level.

Don't blame the media for doing their jobs. With the lack of top names at the Tour, they need to create news somehow and this is definitely news. Of course the timing is interesting. I'm sure there are insiders being paid for releasing this information at just the right moment to make an impact.

Cycling isn't a clean sport (at many levels, not just the pros). Even though doping is accepted in other mainstream American sports (like baseball), that doesn't mean it should be accepted in cycling.

We can put our heads in the sand and pretend that the top pros are clean, but the reality is that the sport is riddled with dopers.

[Eden]

Cheating is cheating.....that's the bottom line. And in the case of some riders, lying is lying.

If doping increases the performance of one rider 30-40%, other riders are forced to do the same just to compete at the same level.

Don't blame the media for doing their jobs. With the lack of top names at the Tour, they need to create news somehow and this is definitely news. Of course the timing is interesting. I'm sure there are insiders being paid for releasing this information at just the right moment to make an impact.

Cycling isn't a clean sport (at many levels, not just the pros). Even though doping is accepted in other mainstream American sports (like baseball), that doesn't mean it should be accepted in cycling.

We can put our heads in the sand and pretend that the top pros are clean, but the reality is that the sport is riddled with dopers.

But why accept what the media says without question? I am sure that there are cheaters and dopers in cycling, but I am also sure that the media isn't completely clean either. Reporters are just as capable of fabrications as cyclists. I would just like to see more evidence of cheating than records from a doctors office that are "in code" that a paper has supposedly broken. The timing is appaling - just a few days before the race, with no time for any of the riders implicated to defend themselves!

[velogirl]

But why accept what the media says without question? I am sure that there are cheaters and dopers in cycling, but I am also sure that the media isn't completely clean either. Reporters are just as capable of fabrications as cyclists. I would just like to see more evidence of cheating than records from a doctors office that are "in code" that a paper has supposedly broken. The timing is appaling - just a few days before the race, with no time for any of the riders implicated to defend themselves!

I accept what the media says because the sport isn't clean. It was only a matter of time before something like this blew. The same thing happened in 1998 and I'm sure it will happen again in the next decade.

There is doping at all levels of the sport. Eden, you race in the Seattle area, right? I bet if you look around, you'll find athletes on the juice right in your local races. If a masters athlete dopes, how can you think that the pros don't?

I think we'll find that the riders won't even try to defend themselves. They'll just slink away quietly and retire from the sport.

ps -- the media isn't competing -- doesn't matter if they're "clean." They're doing their job (reporting news, not creating it). Without Lance, this creates a big news story and frenzy around the tour. You can't blame them for doing their job. The timing was very intentional.

[Squirrel 2]

I do not accept media stories brought out by individuals making wild accusations. This is hardly like that. The charges come from the Spanish police, who have made arrests and are building their case to expand the charges. The information was given to the press by the attorney for the prosecution. The evidence included bags of blood seized, that were compared with blood samples from the accused riders from previous tour samples. There were also medical files & the accounts receivable records seized, which included payments due from riders in the tens of thousands of euros for "services rendered". The teams were presented with the evidence & felt it was strong enough for them to dismiss the riders. As much time & effort as the teams have invested in these guys, they would not do that unless they had to.

Yes, they test the riders all the time, mostly they use urine tests, which are cheap & easy. They do random blood tests, but not as many, because blood tests are expensive. Also, the dopers use masking agents. Tyler Hamilton was supposed to be taking women's hormones as part of the prescribed regimen because they mask the presence of the other stuff.

Floyd Landis just went way up in my estime. I think he's clean, & he doesn't take this racing business too seriously. Look what happens to those who want to win at any cost!

So we have to revise our podium picks -- good chances for Hincapie, Cadel Evans, & Floyd!

[jeannierides]

Well, here are what the bookies are saying the possibilities are...


* Alejandro Valverde (ILL) -7/2
* Alexandre Vinokourov (Wur) -7/2
* Levi Leipheimer (Ger) -7/1
* Floyd Landis (Pho) -7/1
* Cadel Evans (Dav) -10/1
* Yaroslav Popovych (Dis) -12/1
* Paolo Savoldelli (Dis) -20/1
* Andreas Kloden (T-M) -20/1
* Michael Rasmussen (Rab) -25/1
* Denis Menchov (Rab) -25/1
* George Hincapie (Dis) -25/1
* Iban Mayo (Eus) -25/1
* Jose Azevedo (Dis) -25/1
* Christophe Moreau (Ag2) -33/1

I'm afraid that Vino may not have a chance to see because his whole team may end up ousted... there are 58 riders implicated so far...

[maillotpois]

Yes. We've modified our contest page to allow anyone who entered prior to 8:40 a.m. PST to enter one more time.

Susan

Excellent. Thanks! Now I just have to re-group and figure out who's going to win!!

[mtbdarby]

Velogirl,
Heres an example of how the media can tweak their reports. I was interviewed for the GRABAAWR tour. I very clearly told the reporter that I had a sprained wrist. The article stated I had a broken wrist. I was really disappointed in the inaccuracy, but I guess it sounded better, huh? Don't believe everything you read....I'm sure some of the riders are doping - I don't think anyone disputes that. I also think the media bears the resposibility to publish proof of their accusations. Just my $.02 worth.

[Trekhawk]

Quick question for all your TDF cycling gurus. Does the suspension of all these riders especially the top guys throw the still competing teams ride strategy into confusion?
Do they start hastily making a new strategy??

[Eden]

Look - I'm not so naive as to think that the whole pro peleton is clean. I just think that pulling so many people without concrete evidence of wrong doing is not the way to go. Paper work (in code none the less) alone is not enough to convince me. As far as I've heard the blood samples from the Spanish bust have not been identified as of yet. When / if that happens I'll be happy to call it concrete evidence and condem the riders who cheated.

from VeloNews
..the riders listed have not been found guilty of breaking the UCI ProTour's ethical code; there only suspicions. And on the other, their clean reputations have been brought into disrepute in the biggest media circus of the year.

As Basso's team manager Bjarne Riis told the press Friday afternoon, "We need proof. We have to be careful saying things that are not 100-percent sure. The investigation is going on, but how can I say he's lied to me when I cannot prove it. It's pretty normal that I have to support my riders."

If you are so sure that all of these guys aren't clean - why believe that anyone is? Their doc's just haven't been busted yet!

Innocent until proven guilty!