Standover heights?!?

[Nanci]

What about the Ventana X-5? My S Locomoto had its original frame recalled, and has that X-5 frame, (which is different than the Moto Lite- and the old Loco frame used to be like that Yeti frame that had that curved top tube, which was what I particularly liked about it...) Loco's rear shock connects into the V straight ahead, not downward to the downtube like the X-5, but I don't really know what difference that makes. Anyway, I have a 28" inseam, and have plenty of room on that frame. Ventana's site says the standover is 27.1 on the 15".

http://www.ventanausa.com/frame_x5.html

Scroll down to see a picture of my Loco frame, like the Ventana frame.

http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=7057

[Cari]

Cari, you need to go do some research on XC bikes vs all mountain.

I guess I also thought XC was the obvious choice because I want something relatively light. I never even considered an all-mountain... I thought that was for downhillers and for people who rode at places like Moab. I admired a few of them at the LBS, but the owner (a downwhiller) said they were "too much bike" for me -- too heavy and with more travel than I need. He knows that I don't ride big nasty trails... but that's in large part because I'm afraid to do so on my hard-tailed Tassajara. I recently upgraded the fork to an 80mm Fox and that has made a fair bit of difference, but the kind of riding I do regularly is nowhere near what I tried last weekend or what I'd like to do again in the near future. If all goes well, I want to try XC racing next year.

I will do some research, as you suggested. I really don't know enough at the moment to make an educated decision. All I have to go on are the three bikes I tried. Then again... the market might make the decision for me, if I don't find something short soon. :P

[bcipam]

Cari:

I had to make the same decision but ended up going with the 5" travel bike. Now I have t say for most normal terrain I ride a hardtail - just lighter, quicker but if there are any downhills of consequence I take the fully and have to say I love what the 5" gives me over my old fully which was 4", but the bike is alittler heavy and I struggle with climbing. All in all not all that much difference between 4 and 5". If you are racing, go with the xc bike.

Now 5" is not much of a downhill bike. My fork is 100 - 120mm. Downhill bikes go to 300mm!!!! Big difference! My bike is barely "all mountain" and diffinitely not downhill!

[Kathi]

Cari,

Here's an explanation of seat tube angle.

http://www.billbostoncycles.com/seat_tube_angle.htm

Because I have a short femur I need to have a steeper st angle to be positioned over the bike properly and a zero degree seat post. My road bike angle is 75 degrees, the RacerX is 74.5 degrees. My new custom frame is also 74.5 degrees. The person who fitted my road bike said I could go to a 76 degree st angle.

And my saddle is also forward instead of centered.

Mountain bikes typically have a seat tube angle of 72-73 degrees.

[adventurechick]

I am a small rider (5'1" and inseam of 27"). I was thinking of getting a racer-x but I also wanted 4" of travel in front and rear. So I got a Titus moto-lite. Haven't received it yet, it is on order. I did demo it and it had about 2" clearance. The only other bike I found that fit well and was not too big was the Santa Cruz Juliana, although the top tube length is a little shorter than the Titus. Good luck!

[Cari]

Did you get the X-Small Moto Lite? So far, that and the Juliana are the only ones I've found that might fit. But I've heard that the Titus shocks have a better reputation than those that come with Santa Cruz bikes. So if I had to decide on a bike today, I'd probably get the Moto Lite, too. (Mu second choice would be a Racer-X with an 80mm fork).

Do you know how the Moto Lite compares, weightwise, with the Racer-X? I would think that manufacturers would post this info on their sites, but I can't seem to find it anywhere.

Congrats on your purchase. Please let me know how it rides once you've set it up! I'd love to hear more feedback on that model.

Thanks,

~Cari

[tattiefritter]

Do you know how the Moto Lite compares, weightwise, with the Racer-X? I would think that manufacturers would post this info on their sites, but I can't seem to find it anywhere.


~Cari

Cari it may be worth having a look through the www.MTBR.com Titus forum to find out the weight of the respective frames. From memory when I bought the Moto-Lite a medium frame was listed as about six pounds in weight. The Racer X was definitely lighter but as I wasn't interested in it I never really paid attention. The XS will be also be lighter than the medium due to size and the fact that the downtube is lighter as well. I didn't bother weighing my frame when I got it as it was never going to be as light as my hardtail.

[Cari]

Nanci: You're a lucky girl... And I would seriously consider that Ventana if I could actually ride one. But I don't think those are very common here...

bcipam: So, you have a Moto Lite, right? Any info you want to share on that would be appreciated.

You probably have the best of both worlds, and if I had a better hardtail, I might go the same route. I'd *love* to have a nice HT, and if I did, I might consider looking at 5" travel frames as well. But since I already have my Tassajara, I feel like my next bike should be a dualie. Oh and regarding my comment on downhill bikes... I've seen some of them and they look like dirtbikes! I guess since only a year and a half ago my mtb was an old-school Trek with a rigid fork, and I've never had a full suspension bike, to me, anything with 6" of travel looks like it's fit for the Grand Canyon.

Kathi: Thanks for the link for info on seat tube angles. I have the specs for my road bike around here somewhere, so I'll check and see what was prescribed for me. Assuming equal rider measurements, is there a difference in seat tube angle between road bikes and mountain bikes?

Tattiefritter: I've looked up stuff on mtbr.com before but I didn't know they published frame weights. Thanks for the tip, I'll check out the Titus forum!

And finally...

I test rode an 2005 XS (14") Ellsworth Truth on Thursday and loved it. The bike shop owners were super nice -- one of them brought me his wife's bike to test. I never thought I could fit properly on such a small bike, and to be honest, I still feel weird about it. But other than needing to raise the seat and push the saddle back a bit, the fit feels good. The Truth's virtual top tube measurement is 21.3" -- almost the same as my GF Tass, which is 22". My Tass has a 70mm stem, so I could make up the difference by putting a 90 on the Ellsworth. I'm also concerned about bobbing, but the bike I rode is set up for a 130lb. rider, and I'm... not 130 lbs. I want to read more about the rear shock system on the Ellsworth site, but my mechanic says that it's just a matter of setting it for my weight.

I originally thought that even the 14" Truth wouldn't work, because the standover heights published by Ellsworth are the same for all frames -- 28". But the LBS owner said that in 2005 (but not in 2006), they made the top tube differently just on the XS in order to give it a lower standover height. The frame they offered is a 2005, so they're willing to knock a few hundred dollars off the price.

It's still a big purchase, so I'm thinking about it... But I think that if I manage to test ride an XS Titus Racer-X and a Trek Fuel EX 9 WSD in order to rule them out as possibilities, I might just convince myself to buy the Truth.

Now I'm off to bed to dream of groups & kits...

~Cari

[Kathi]

Kathi: Thanks for the link for info on seat tube angles. I have the specs for my road bike around here somewhere, so I'll check and see what was prescribed for me. Assuming equal rider measurements, is there a difference in seat tube angle between road bikes and mountain bikes?



Cari, no there is not a difference. The length of the femur determines your seat tube angle. MY road and mtn bikes are 74.5 - 75 degrees. I have one mtn bike, my Voodoo which has a 72 degree st angle. I really notice the difference when I ride it, I'm to far away from the center of the bike to get good power on it. With a zero degree seatpost and my saddle as far forward as it will go, I can't get a good kops measurement, my femur is that short.

I specifically went for the Titus because of the st angle. There weren't many companies making a mtn bike with the steeper st angle which I need.

[gcat]

And finally...

I test rode an 2005 XS (14") Ellsworth Truth on Thursday and loved it. The bike shop owners were super nice -- one of them brought me his wife's bike to test. I never thought I could fit properly on such a small bike, and to be honest, I still feel weird about it. But other than needing to raise the seat and push the saddle back a bit, the fit feels good. The Truth's virtual top tube measurement is 21.3" -- almost the same as my GF Tass, which is 22". My Tass has a 70mm stem, so I could make up the difference by putting a 90 on the Ellsworth. I'm also concerned about bobbing, but the bike I rode is set up for a 130lb. rider, and I'm... not 130 lbs. I want to read more about the rear shock system on the Ellsworth site, but my mechanic says that it's just a matter of setting it for my weight.

I originally thought that even the 14" Truth wouldn't work, because the standover heights published by Ellsworth are the same for all frames -- 28". But the LBS owner said that in 2005 (but not in 2006), they made the top tube differently just on the XS in order to give it a lower standover height. The frame they offered is a 2005, so they're willing to knock a few hundred dollars off the price.

~Cari

It's important to note that the 14" Truth isn't a 14" frame at all -- it's a 16" frame with a bent top tube. (Note, Ellsworth no longer calls it the 14" -- it's now designated an "xs frame"). As a result, the frame is a bit of a quirky fit -- doesn't fit many who would normally ride a 14", but a good compromise frame for others, which may explain why it works well for you.

[bcipam]

The bike I ride right now is the Specialized Stumpjumper FSR. It's the 5" inch travel bike. I also had a Superlight (Santa Cruz) which I loved but it got "old" and tired. I kindof wished I got another Superlight but for me it was a price issue plus I thought I wanted the 5" travel bike. I find I'm riding my Specialized Stumpjumper M4 HT more and more - it's just so quick and light.

[Cari]

It's important to note that the 14" Truth isn't a 14" frame at all -- it's a 16" frame with a bent top tube. (Note, Ellsworth no longer calls it the 14" -- it's now designated an "xs frame"). As a result, the frame is a bit of a quirky fit -- doesn't fit many who would normally ride a 14", but a good compromise frame for others, which may explain why it works well for you.

Are you referring to Truth frames in general, or to the 2006 model?

Actually, I was at the LBS yesterday to be fitted on that 2005 14"/XS frame and it turned out to be too short. They asked me to bring in my current bike (a GF hardtail), took measurements, adjusted the height and fore/aft position of the seat on the Ellsworth, etc., and had me take it out on the road for a bit. The top tube is too short, so when I pedal somewhat aggressively while standing or go uphill, my knees and lower inner thighs can bang against the steering tube. My Tassajara's virtual top tube measurement is about 23". The 14" Truth was just over 21".

I'm going to call Ellsworth anyway... maybe they've changed the dimensions on the 2006 model? Even just one extra inch of length in the cockpit could make it work for me.

But I'm *so* bummed out...

[gcat]

Are you referring to Truth frames in general, or to the 2006 model?

2005 model, but I have been told that the 2006 is a 16" frame as well. (They have corrected the spec by renaming the bike the XS).

[tattiefritter]

Hi Cari,

I've had a quick search on our web hosted photos and found a few of me on the ML, most of them are from the front though. There is a panning one from the side which although slightly blurred does show how I fit on the bike. I do like a small frame and I have also moved my saddle quite a bit further back since that photo was taken (on an inline post) as for reasons that escape me now it was quite far forward on the rails. There have been problems with directly linking to Fotopic pictures directly but you should be ok with going into the gallery (fingers crossed). The photo to look for is "Julie-pan" in the bottom left hand corner.


http://gallery127676.fotopic.net/c966863.html

There are other pictures of me on the ML (and some of my other bike - but its green so obvious) in the various galleries accessible from the Index.

Anything labelled Julie...

[Lara]

I just bought an XS Ellsworth Truth that has 4" travel in the rear and up to 105 mm in the front. It has a slightly shorter wheelbase than the S, but I felt that the cockpit fit me perfectly, whereas I was a bit too long in the torso for the SC Juliana. I am 5'4" with a 30.5 inseam but have shortish arms...

One thing about Ellsworth is that they are handcrafted in the US and the bike tracks like a dream over technical stuff. Also, the styling is better than anything else on the market though the bent top tube does compromise the look (yet provides a nice clearance when you have to bail.)
The "Ellsworth Mafia" makes it hard to get a hold of the XS (you may have to wait a few months), but they should fly one out to your local dealer if you would like to try one.

Cost of bike with a SRAM X7 gruppo...4500. Having the coolest bike in town...priceless.