Well I might be joining the peri club!

[shootingstar]

I didn't pay attention to this thread until now and realized what the topic was about.

So far, past 3 yrs. I haven't had bad experiences being in peri. For past few months, I just wake up with a flushed face in morning, 1-2 times per wk. and then in 5 min. the warmth is over. It's not even a hot flash for me. Just a warm cosy feeling.

Yes, am fading away period-wise.

Any emotional stuff is not attributed to that, I've had some major personal changes going on in life for past year.

[Brandi]

Sooooo not part of the club just yet. But the mental ward if I don't relax. I feel lame that I can't control this anxiety sometimes. Sigh.....They want me to take zoloft or something like it. I am going to look into natural remedies first as well as talk to my acupuncturist. He does chinese herbs for this and that. Also I am going to just relax from here on out.I know I can get over this myself.
I needed to know my body was not suffering from anything but my brain. If that makes since. PVC can be scary. But maybe now that once again I know I am physically ok I will start feeling better. Hormones are great, good LDL, all just where it should be and better so that is good. Now relax silly! And start counting those blessing's!
Thanks again for listening to me ladies. Merry Christmas!! XOXO

[owlice]

So you'll take "natural remedies" and "chinese herbs" that are not tested for safety and efficacy, but you won't take medication that is?? That seems ... ah.... backwards to me.

Sometimes I see people waving around the phrase "it's natural" as though that translates to "safe." Poisonous mushrooms and hemlock are natural, though definitely not a good idea.

I get PVCs, too, and when I feel them, I take a really deep breath and then exhale; if that doesn't stop them, I cough. Doing one or both of these things nearly always makes them stop.

I hope you feel better soon!

[Crankin]

You should keep an open mind, Brandi. Anxiety is a disabling thing and sometimes you need more than one thing to help make it go away. And, many of the natural remedies and herbs are unproven and could be dangerous. Some of the natural things that do work for many people are controlled breathing, meditation, yoga, progressive muscle relaxation, as well as learning what your triggers are for anxiety, keeping a thought journal, and yoga.
What you mentioned before, about your mother is really important. Even though you made the choice to separate yourself from her and lead a healthy lifestyle, with a supportive spouse, the fact is that anyone who experiences living with an alcoholic parent, abandonment, or any neglect at a young age has experienced trauma. It stays deep inside of our brains and can affect us in the most mysterious ways, anxiety being one. I have seen this over and over again in my work. While Al-Anon is a great support group, it really doesn't address these issues.
I suggest you work with a therapist who is knowledgeable in holistic strategies, but also has connections with a prescriber who is a psychiatrist, not your GP or gynecologist. PM me if you want more information.

[Brandi]

My mind is very open. i don't believe FDA approved drugs are actually any better then natural remedies to be honest and just because they are approved really means nothing. I can give many cases of approved drugs that have caused major harm. I will go with what I believe is right for me for sure.

[indysteel]

While I have nothing against drug therapies and understand that many people find them to be helpful and/or necessary, have you considered some form of talk therapy to help you deal with your anxiety and stress levels?

[goldfinch]

No matter what, evidence is good. You do not want to be an experiment of one, not knowing what experience others have had.

Here are a few reviews of what there is of evidence on some herbal remedies and dietary supplements for anxiety:
http://apt.rcpsych.org/content/13/4/312.full
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/568309
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18281839

The NIH has a site where you can look up search herbal remedies and supplements for what evidence is known about their effects: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/d.../herb_All.html

Arm yourself with knowledge.

[Crankin]

All medicines have side effects, including herbal ones. Just because something is "natural" does not mean it's safe.
Those links are quit good, Goldfinch. Frankly, I would not mess around with any herbal preparation, unless it was vetted in a large research based clinical trial and recommended by a physician. There are quite a few medical doctors who practice holistically and might prescribe herbal remedies, if they were found to be safe (i.e. no things like hepatic damage!).
Yes, there are side effects to psychotropic drugs, and most people have to try adjusting dosage, time of administration, or switching to a different medication before they find something that works and doesn't cause annoying or even dangerous side effects. I tell my clients that I am neither pro nor anti medication; it is up to each person to decide for themselves. But, just taking medication without on-going therapy, at least for awhile, is not solving the problem.
I have a friend who is prescribed Lexapro by her Ob-Gyn . She's taken it for years, and it is doing nothing for her escalating mood lability. She thinks it's working, but she doesn't take it as prescribed, i.e. she thinks she only needs to take it when she feels "bad." This person desperately needs therapy and medication prescribed by a mental health provider. My feeling is that a lot of people are getting psychotropic meds this way (from a PCP) and then when they don't work, they just quit and never try anything else, under the guidance of someone who knows what they are doing.

[OakLeaf]

Well the last two links are to the same article (one is an abstract only), and none of them reviews any TCM methodologies. And, in other contexts, I know the scientists here have decried meta-analyses over and over again.

A reputable acupuncture physician prescribes traditional Chinese herbs that have been tested over thousands of years. If they don't buy their herbs directly from the grower (or grow them themselves!), they know which brands are produced according to GMP. Acupuncture physicians trained at quality US schools are also educated in north/western medical principles so that they can coordinate their efforts with practitioners of north/western medicine. I'm pretty sure, but not 100%, that the same is true with Chinese-educated doctors.

Historically, for reasons that have much to do with misogyny, European and North American industrialized medicine suppressed traditional medicine to the lasting detriment of both. The same is not true of Chinese medicine where techniques and understandings are viewed as complementary and not distinct, and a unified system of medicine has been allowed to evolve.


Leaf through a PDR some time and observe what percentage of FDA-approved drugs carry the notation "mechanism of action is unknown," including most popular psychotropics. Then come back and talk about how herbs don't work because north/western doctors don't understand how.

My acupuncture doctor retired from a long career as an environmental engineer and spent two years in medical school before transferring to acupuncture college because he didn't want to be a pill-pusher (his words). It's not like he's lacking in "scientific" background.


I think there can be a lot of potential problems when Chinese herbs are used by people with a north/western understanding of medication - i.e., throw things at the illness until something sticks. TCM has much more to do with treating the person, not the condition, and so even more than with psychopharmaceuticals, it's important that Chinese herbs be prescribed by a trained provider.

[bmccasland]

(((((Brandi))))

Go with what works for you. I've been prescribed various psych meds to control migraines and help deal with work stress. It is important to take your meds as directed. But I also learned, twice, that I couldn't tolerate the side effects when my dosage was increased - one dropped my blood pressure too much, and the other left me in a zombie state.

When the night sweats and then waking up cold wouldn't let me get a good night's sleep, waking something like 8 times a night - my OB/GYN put me on hormone replacement - which was a godsend. Eventually I was tapered down to the lowest dose possible, then a few months ago I weaned myself off them without too much trouble. I had tried to wean myself off a few years ago, but the nightly hot&sweaty/freezing cycles were too much.

Better living through chemistry.

[Crankin]

Oh, I'm not saying herbs don't work. I just don't feel comfortable in using them for myself. What I am really trying to say is that *everything* can have scary side effects, and just because something is herbal, doesn't mean it won't have side effects. And I also understand that Chinese medicine has been used for years and western medicine has shunned it. There needs to be a happy medium. I just get worried when people say they will only consider "natural" treatments and don't see herbals as medicines that can have side effects.
I think you are right, Oak, about acupuncture physicians from US trained schools. I went to one who helped me tremendously. Like yours, he was headed to med school, when a friend he had dissuaded him. Instead, he went to acupuncture school. Now, he trains doctors at Harvard Med School, in addition to his practice. He was even a former cyclist, who happened to race on the same team that my son was on.
Most people don't really evaluate whatever medicines they are taking. I tend toward the opposite, to the point of making myself not read too much now, or I would not ever take anything. I am just too psychosomatic. However, I did take Attivan without "thinking" and it really helped me. I was quite motivated not to misuse it, and the prescribing psych. was pretty adamant in telling me that she didn't see me as someone who had an addictive personality. However, she did try me on Celexa and Prozac, both of which made me feel worse. That's when I started the acupuncture. I am not sure if it was strictly the acupuncture that "cured" my anxiety, as I was also doing the Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction class, yoga, and therapy. Professionally, I really think it is often a mixture of things that help people and what is good for one person may do nothing for another.

[goldfinch]

Well the last two links are to the same article (one is an abstract only), and none of them reviews any TCM methodologies. And, in other contexts, I know the scientists here have decried meta-analyses over and over again.

Sorry about the duplicate link. There is plenty of criticism out there on TCM methodologies. Most of the studies require subscriptions to the sites and I wanted to give non-subscription links.

A reputable acupuncture physician prescribes traditional Chinese herbs that have been tested over thousands of years. If they don't buy their herbs directly from the grower (or grow them themselves!), they know which brands are produced according to GMP. Acupuncture physicians trained at quality US schools are also educated in north/western medical principles so that they can coordinate their efforts with practitioners of north/western medicine. I'm pretty sure, but not 100%, that the same is true with Chinese-educated doctors.

Historically, for reasons that have much to do with misogyny, European and North American industrialized medicine suppressed traditional medicine to the lasting detriment of both. The same is not true of Chinese medicine where techniques and understandings are viewed as complementary and not distinct, and a unified system of medicine has been allowed to evolve.


Leaf through a PDR some time and observe what percentage of FDA-approved drugs carry the notation "mechanism of action is unknown," including most popular psychotropics. Then come back and talk about how herbs don't work because north/western doctors don't understand how.

My acupuncture doctor retired from a long career as an environmental engineer and spent two years in medical school before transferring to acupuncture college because he didn't want to be a pill-pusher (his words). It's not like he's lacking in "scientific" background.


I think there can be a lot of potential problems when Chinese herbs are used by people with a north/western understanding of medication - i.e., throw things at the illness until something sticks. TCM has much more to do with treating the person, not the condition, and so even more than with psychopharmaceuticals, it's important that Chinese herbs be prescribed by a trained provider.

Chinese herbs have not been scientifically tested over and over again for 1000s of years. Scientific methods are much newer than that. Instead, much is tradition. And much of the tradition is more myth than fact. For example, acupuncture has a questionable history, with some kind of needling going in and out of popularity in various countries, has varied in how it was practiced over the years, and became popular in China when Mao pushed it as cheap medical care. Mao was the one who called it traditional. Acupuncture has now been studied using scientific methods and has come out wanting, no better and sometimes worse than sham acupuncture (placebo). The quality of research coming from China on acupuncture is extremely poor and uncontrolled. My opinion has nothing to do with some kind of eastern/western dichotomy or prejudice. It only has to do with evidence. That is all I care about.

Harriet Hall says it better than me:

Guess what? It doesn’t matter where you put the needle. It doesn’t matter whether you use a needle at all. In the best controlled studies, only one thing mattered: whether the patients believed they were getting acupuncture. If they believed they got the real thing, they got better pain relief – whether they actually got acupuncture or not! If they got acupuncture but believed they didn’t, it was less likely to work. If they didn’t get it but believed they did, it was more likely to work.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...puncture-myth/

No matter how sincere the practitioner is, the underlying theory of acupuncture has no good science behind it. Accreditation of practitioners is not based on validity of what is being taught, unlike evidence based medicine.

Phrases like "treating the whole person, "complementary medicine," and "traditional medicine" are warm and fuzzy but essentially meaningless. Ask you doctor, does she not treat all of you? There is only one medicine, the medicine that has demonstrable knowledge of the risks and benefits of its tools so decisions can be made on how to treat an individual. I don't care what part of the world it comes from.

I know that periodically I come down hard on altmed. I know that I risk offending some of you when I criticize what you believe to be true. I acknowledge that there are good reasons why people lost trust in Big Pharma. But I trust Big Altmed even less. It pretends to be the underdog when it often is big business with a strong lobby resisting regulation. People who criticize altmed are sometimes slapped with lawsuits to shut them up, with no regard to free exchange of ideas. When I worked on lobbying on health care issues I was threatened with a suit for criticizing a particular alternative medicine practice. Everything I said could be backed up by the facts but facts were not relevant to those making the threat.

Altmed marketing is misleading. Altmed treats supplements as food and not drugs but then want people to take them like they are drugs. The get away with the quack version of a "miranda" warning:
These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.


They couch their claims in vague language like "boosts the immune system," "detoxifies the liver," "cleanses the whatever" or "good for heart health."

Pseudo-science passes for science. And people like Oprah get enamoured of the latest fad.

It wore me out. But I can't keep my mouth shut.

[Dogmama]

Growing up with alcoholic parents is anxiety provoking. Their primary relationship is with their bottle, not you. My parents were alcoholic & drug addicted. When I hit perimenopause, it was like the flood gates opened. After trial & error, I found a good therapist whom I continue to work with.

I also have a board certified psychiatrist who prescribes my med. Mental health is just as important (if not more so) than physical health. I would not ask my PCP to do heart surgery.

"Natural" vs FDA - I used to work with Andy Weil. He would tell you that FDA medicines have their place. We don't know enough about brain chemistry, so it's all trial & error. I tried herbs & they didn't work for me, but they must work for some people. I felt like I "caved" when I started FDA drugs, but when I began to feel better, it didn't matter anymore.

Back to my original reason for posting, though, don't discount living with alcoholic parents. It affects us profoundly and on many levels. Al Anon is good if you can find a good group. Unfortunately, many of them want to be victims & they don't move out of their pain. My mantra is: "My parents may have made me crazy - but now it is MY insanity. What am I going to do with it?"

[Crankin]

Thank you.
This advice is so much more meaningful coming from another person in the same situation, rather than from a professional.

[Irulan]

Ditto on dogmama's succint post.