another bike date... he neglected to mention...

[latelatebloomer]

Warning: I am an unrepentant feminist. I all too well remember the classified ads listing "employment for men" "employment for women," just for starters, or the days when a boy would hit a girl and her teacher/mother would say, "that means he likes you."

On the topic of women shaping their lives around their partners, I gotta say that recently, when my husband went back to grad school at age 38, lived in another city for 3 years, and turned our finances and our relationship on their heads, I routinely recieved lectures from supposedly enlighted NY liberal types on "supporting" my husband's career. As in, I was not doing enough. It really made me distraught, also frightened that he was being advised to leave me behind. Probably he was. One day, I realized that at no time had anyone, anywhere, anyhow, lectured my husband on supporting me in MY career, even though I am just as talented and was having real breakthroughs with my own work, such as a book contract with a major publisher. That's how intense the pressure is on women. I like the idea that the pressure is on both partners in a relationship, but I don't see it.

[bcipam]

Maybe its my age, but I am a true believer of old fashion notions of a marriage. I expect a husband to honor, cherish and protect and I expect the wife to respect, support and obey (I don't mean as a servant, but don't be inpertient, disrepectful).

A marriage must be a true partnership to work but sometimes that means one must give up their own goals and aspirations to support those of the spouse. If both are trying to suceed on their own, there is little room to support the other. Of course, every marriage is different and what works for one doesn't work for another. I don't understand where the notion came from that a woman cannot be respected if she chooses to be a mother and keep a good house as oppose to have a career and leave the children with a nanny or at day care. Can't think of a more important job that either spouse can take. God bless the stay at home moms (and dads) out there!!!

Now at my age I don't plan on having a family so I can pursue my career but I would and have put my husband ( or boyfriend) first. But that's just me.

[Yasmin]

One day, I realized that at no time had anyone, anywhere, anyhow, lectured my husband on supporting me in MY career, even though I am just as talented and was having real breakthroughs with my own work, such as a book contract with a major publisher. That's how intense the pressure is on women. I like the idea that the pressure is on both partners in a relationship, but I don't see it.

See, See, See...that's my point!!!. It's expected of us. We're not really that far removed from the child-like 1950's housewife who was perpetually nice & self-sacrificing for her hard-working husband (no one thought child rearing consisted of hard work in those days). My husbands parents "celebrated" 50yrs of marriage about 3 years ago. Her comment: "I should be awarded a gold medal for putting up with him". What bitterness & resentment this oozes. No one can give up their goals, their life & not have resentment.

Bcipam wrote:"A marriage must be a true partnership to work but sometimes that means one must give up their own goals and aspirations to support those of the spouse"....
Excuse me for saying this but, are you serious? Would your husband do likewise? I know of one husband who gave up his career for that of his wife's (she's a surgeon) & that marriage is on the rocks. I know many women with high school/ university aged children who are now resentful of what they've given up.

[latelatebloomer]

Bcipam, I feel that putting down the role of "only" mother & homemaker is an area where many modern feminists went wrong. I knew I was completely unsuited for both, and I married at 31 to someone who also had no desire for the father/provider role.

I also think that if a woman chooses the mother/homemaker role, she should be respected and valued by her society, have an equal say in the money & property & decision making, and have access to healthcare, retirement, and political voice apart from the whims of her husband. And the same for when it's the man who is the homemaker/nurturer. I have a problem with corporate, academic, and political positions that require the partner to act as an invisible employee - socializing, entertaining, lobbying, etc - with no protectable gain of their own.

When I was a manager at various small businesses, it drove me crazy when an applicant told me she had "only" been a mother. Those "moms" were consistently the hardest working, most unflappable employees on my crew.

I don't see how a grown adult in his or her full faculties can be asked to "obey" the other without slow death of the psyche and the relationship. I grew up with that concept, and I never liked the results that I saw.

I'm glad we've been able to keep this thread going with mutual respect. These are tough topics. I hope all of us can find our way to rich relationships that satisfy our hearts.

[laughlaugh18]

From latelate, "I feel that putting down the role of "only" mother & homemaker is an area where many modern feminists went wrong."

It's my belief that the early modern feminists got pushed into the corner and had to do that to "prove" that women were serious about work. My mom tried to go back to work in the late 60s/early 70s when my brother and I were teens. She was uniformly told (by uniformly male potential employers) that she didn't have the experience, the ability or the interest ("obvious" since she'd been out of the workforce for so long) in the work she was applying for. It was shameful, and it was what the feminists at the time were up against. It was the guys who started the stupid "only a homemaker" line, and unfortunately some feminists got sucked into it.

Sounds like we're of the same mind on this. The point of feminism to me is to ensure women have the freedom to pursue the work/home balance that's right for them . . . and are given equal respect no matter what direction they choose.

Cathy

[slinkedog]

Okay... here's my 2 cents worth. I'm a stay at home mom. I worked from the time my oldest was 2 mos. old until she was 8, when I had remarried and had her brother. Having had it both ways, I am SO grateful that my husband works so hard so that I can stay home with our kids. I hated working while my daughter was being cared for by someone else.

My job is here at home. My husband's is at his office (and our home office, many nights and weekends, much as he hates that.) We have no problems with our roles because we try really hard to always put each others' needs ahead of our own. When you're both making that happen, it works great. Of course we have times where we don't do a good job of living up to the ideal; we deal with those issues as they arise, but I have to say that we don't have them very often. My husband is great and I am so thankful for him!! I think the biblical notion of the wife obeying her husband is very misunderstood and taken out of context. I believe that men through the centuries have abused that idea horribly without themselves obeying the command they were given- to love their wives enough to die for them and to treat them accordingly.

I think when you have a partnership of mutual giving, it works. When you have a relationship where each person is most interested in having things on their own terms, there is tension, resentment and loss of respect. At least that's what I experienced in my first marriage.

Not meaning to preach... just sharing my opinion.

[Trek420]

latelatebloomer writes "Warning: I am an unrepentant feminist."

women come with warning labels now? who knew. what would mine say? "contents under pressure, needs fresh air"

I agree with the slogan "every mother is a working mother", that and teaching, probably the hardest jobs in the world.

"I'm glad we've been able to keep this thread going with mutual respect. These are tough topics. I hope all of us can find our way to rich relationships that satisfy our hearts."

yep, another "only on TE" moment. Here's to all of us *toasts you all with Cytomax*

[DirtDiva]

On the other hand individuals can be of themselves just as rigid: take my ex, please...she didn't want me to do laundry, ever. She kinda resented that she had to do it but would not let me. Alrighty then.

Sheesh. That would drive me absolutely berserk! I mean really truly nuts. I wouldn't cope with it at all.

[Trekhawk]

Im am very proud to be a stay at home mum. I had my first child a month before I turned 33 and at that time was a serving member of the defence force. Leaving my job after the birth of my first child was not something I even had to think hard about, I couldnt imagine leaving him with anyone else all day. I have learned so much being a mum and Im sure its fine honed my organization skills. Hey all mums can multi task without even giving it a thought. I know some people feel its a less than admirable career choice but after the birth of two more beautiful boys I wouldnt change a thing. I guess one main thing I have learned from not having a "career" anymore is that you find your self worth from other areas of life. I no longer need a job to define who I am and for this Im truly grateful.

[Irulan]

Bcipam, I feel that putting down the role of "only" mother & homemaker is an area where many modern feminists went wrong. I knew I was completely unsuited for both, and I married at 31 to someone who also had no desire for the father/provider role.

I also think that if a woman chooses the mother/homemaker role, she should be respected and valued by her society, have an equal say in the money & property & decision making, and have access to healthcare, retirement, and political voice apart from the whims of her husband. And the same for when it's the man who is the homemaker/nurturer. I have a problem with corporate, academic, and political positions that require the partner to act as an invisible employee - socializing, entertaining, lobbying, etc - with no protectable gain of their own.

When I was a manager at various small businesses, it drove me crazy when an applicant told me she had "only" been a mother. Those "moms" were consistently the hardest working, most unflappable employees on my crew.

I don't see how a grown adult in his or her full faculties can be asked to "obey" the other without slow death of the psyche and the relationship. I grew up with that concept, and I never liked the results that I saw.

I'm glad we've been able to keep this thread going with mutual respect. These are tough topics. I hope all of us can find our way to rich relationships that satisfy our hearts.

Read "A lesser Life, The Myth of Women's Liberation in America" by Sylvia Ann Hewlett. This book was published in 1985, by a woman who was a first wave feminist, a professor of econonmics at an Ivy League univesity, and a mother of twins, who found out the hard way that there's no way to have it all. I was fairly disillusioned with the women's movement at that point in time anyway, and this book cememted my dissillusionment.

I first got glimpses at what was wrong with first wave feminism when my husband was on call 7 days a week in the oil field, sometimes working 40+ hour shifts with no sleep, and all my so-called friends would ask me is why didn't I make him split the housework with me 50/50 when he was home. I was a college student at the time. I had my kids soon after that, fairly young, and the way that being a stay at home mom was then devalued ( mid/late 80's) was to me, pathetic. That part at least seems to have gotten better, people are coming to their senses about the value of nurturing the ones who come up behind us.

[Yasmin]

Read " being a stay at home mom was then devalued ( mid/late 80's) was to me, pathetic. That part at least seems to have gotten better, people are coming to their senses about the value of nurturing the ones who come up behind us.

We are yet to see the consequences of having our kids in childcare centers while both parents work full-time. Give it another 10yrs or so, maybe then we will finally understand the importance (or not) of rearing the children that we choose to bring into this world instead of employing someone else to do so.

[jeannierides]

I am not surprised that we can discuss so candidly a topic so very personal to each of us, and still respect each others' opinion. That is what I have come to expect on this board.

When I married my first ex, it was pretty much a given that we would pretty much build our life together around his dream. When his dream changed - two years into our marriage - I was expected to accept and adapt - and most of all, not complain. Our daughter came along, and I *had* to work to help support us. We moved every couple of years, due to his job, and I was never able to get a foothold in any *job* worth making a career. I spent several years working outside the home, until one day I'd had enough. Decided I needed to spend more time with our daughter, and we'd just have to adapt...and we did.
This story, however, did not have a very happy ending. After 23 years, I decided I could not take the loss of my self any longer, and left the marriage. I had nothing. My so called *skills* as an admin/clerical worker had not kept up with the electronic age, and I came pretty close to being homeless for the first 3 or 4 years after we split up. No one appreciated my homemaking skills either. Out of the workforce too long. And to add to that, my attorney just *got me out* of the marriage, and said that he didn't realize I wanted him to fight for me to get my *share* ... I was so naive that I took the path of least resistance.

Am I bitter? Yeah, a little. But it was the *times* and I have learned the hard way to fight for my life. I watched my parents in their roles, and in the 40 years they were married there was little bitterness...but they seemed to be the exceptions... I no longer believe in *forever* - but I believe in mutual respect - haven't seen much of it, but still believe in it.

I married again 5 years after my divorce, and that marriage lasted about a minute and a half! We discovered we could not live together, but we have re-discovered each other in our mutual love for biking. We each have our own homes and separate lives, and that works for us - for now.

I don't envy those of you in the dating arena. It's hard. And it's even harder, once you find someone, not to totally give up ourselves - I think most of us are hard-wired that way, and it's a painful to re-work that wiring no matter when you do it. But don't give up. Learn from those of us who have made choices that have proven both good and bad...

~~~peace~~~

[Irulan]

We are yet to see the consequences of having our kids in childcare centers while both parents work full-time. Give it another 10yrs or so, maybe then we will finally understand the importance (or not) of rearing the children that we choose to bring into this world instead of employing someone else to do so.

heh, day care that is a whole 'nother can of worms. better save that one for a different day.

[laughlaugh18]

He checked me out head to toe, walked around me checking me out head to toe, and pulled out a camera and asked if I minded if he took a picture. . . . He has ADD (my take) SADD (his admission) and limited social skills . . . !

Wow. . . the camera thing's a new one, but it sure sounds like one of my west coast loonies migrated in your direction!

[Trek420]

mtbdarby "He checked me out head to toe, walked around me checking me out head to toe, and pulled out a camera and asked if I minded if he took a picture."

surprised he didn't check your teeth and the hooves.

"He gets no second date and zero chain rings."

ya think?

"Trek, I don't google, but I've gotten good at finding out their last names and plugged them into a wonderful WI court system website. Anyone with domestic violence (or any violence), current financial woes, or drinking related issues are a no go for me. That's what happens when you're raised by a cop, lol!"

Good luck on the old boyfriend thing, sounds promissing.

Ok ok, we rarely post jokes to this group but just got this one and it seems approprate to this thread:

A man was sick and tired of going to work every day while his wife
stayed home. He wanted her to see what he went through so he prayed:
"Dear Lord: I go to work every day and put in 8 hours while my wife
merely stays at home.

I want her to know what I go through, so please
allow her body to switch with mine for a day. Amen.

God, in his infinite wisdom, granted the man's wish. The next morning,
sure enough, the man awoke as a woman.
He arose, cooked breakfast for his mate, awakened the kids,
Set out their school clothes, fed them breakfast, packed their lunches,

Drove them to school, came home and picked up
the dry cleaning, took it to the cleaners
And stopped at the bank to make a deposit, went grocery shopping,
Then drove home to put away the groceries,
Paid the bills and balanced the checkbook.

He cleaned the cat's litter box and bathed the dog.

Then it was already 1 P.M. and he hurried to make the beds, do the
laundry, vacuum, dust, and sweep and mop the kitchen floor.

Ran to the school to pick up the kids and got into an argument with them
on the way home.

Set out milk and cookies and got the kids organized to do their
homework,
Then set up the ironing board and watched TV while he did the ironing.

At 4:30 he began peeling potatoes and washing vegetables for salad,
breaded the pork chops and snapped fresh beans for supper.

After supper, he cleaned the kitchen, ran the dishwasher, folded
laundry, bathed the kids, and put them to bed. At 9 P.M. he was
exhausted and, though his daily chores weren't finished, he went to bed
where he was expected to make love, which he managed to get through
without complaint.

The next morning, he awoke and immediately knelt by the bed and said,
Lord, I don't know what I was thinking. I was so wrong to envy my wife's
being able to stay home all day. Please, oh please, let us trade back."

The Lord, in his infinite wisdom, replied, "My son, I feel you have
learned your lesson and I will be happy to change things back to the way
they were. You'll just have to wait nine months, though. You got
pregnant last night."