"Unfair Genetic Advantage"

[smilingcat]

I really feel for Semenya. I think I would be crushed if media started in on me to say hey that's a man there!! A wolf in sheep's clothing to get on a podium.

My understanding is that IOC has dropped karyotyping because lot of women came up as XXY? or XY female???

So if you look like a dude, have dude parts, and XY obviously you can't compete in women's category.

But if you are XY female or XXY or mosaic, are they allowed??

The other thing too is that what was her name Merriam Bagger? the semi- or professional golfer who had the sex change operation to become a woman. I thought LPGA as allowing her to compete. so XY with sex change can compete.

I looked up on "intersex" on the internet and came to a non-profit organization on intersex. Reading some of the explanations just made me more confused. I thought your body chromosome were uniform but this isn't so in person who is mosaic. they could have XX for part of their body and XY in another. and they were talking about androgen insensitivity where no amount of testosterone will make you masculine and so XY could end up looking like a girl. Pretty strange stuff...

so where do we draw the line??

some girls are born without uterus... so specifying need for it will exclude them.
has to be XX chromosome will exclude some women.
has to have female genitals... will a guy could have a sex change surgery...
and how much testosterone is too much??

I am too illiterate in this area to speak on this matter. And let the officials and medical experts decide. And I sure wish the stupid media stops hyping the story and let the poor girl alone.

[GLC1968]

Apparently tests have shown that her male hormone levels are 3 times higher than normal

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-sto...5875-21622252/

At the bottom of that article, it says that a man's testosterone is 40 to 60 times that of a woman. Should only 3 times as much really be enough to disqualify someone?

[Thorn]

In 1996, 8 female athletes tested XXY. All were allowed to continue competing. The cases were not made public. Semenya's was leaked to the press.

Reuter's summary
http://www.reuters.com/article/sport...dChannel=11611

Interesting historical document
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conw...erTesting.html



Oh, and Mr. Silver, take Karen (Tuckerville)'s advice. Read the articles. She took the time to find them for you, take the time to read them. You may find them enlightening.

[KnottedYet]

Normal Average testosterone for a pre-menopausal female: 0.6-0.7 nmol/L

Normal Range of testosterone for a pre-menopausal female: 0.2-2.9 nmol/L

[Eden]

That new article is horribly written -even to the headline....

Well yeah she has "male" hormones - we (women) all do.....
and there's lots of natural variation between human beings. What they appear to be intimating in the article is that the testosterone in her system may be synthetic, but it really doesn't look like they have any evidence of that, so they can't come out and make the claim. She's just associated with a coach who's been caught doping his athletes in the past....

You all want something interesting to listen to? This American Life did a show based all around testosterone once, including the staff being tested for their own levels - and yes some of the women had higher levels than some of the men...http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radi...spx?sched=1230 This is much more about feelings around masculinity and femininity than hard core science.

[Mr. Bloom]

A couple of links for you, Mr. Silver. white privilege Owning unearned white privilege

Karen

Since you asked, yes. But, I disagree with the basic premise, because:
- I cannot change how others feel...I am responsible for me
- I cannot change the past, I can only observe and be a catalyst of change in the present

I believe that NOTHING is accomplished by focusing on the past...we have to acknowledge it, but we have to constantly do gut checks in the present to assure that we are fair in the HERE and NOW.

Back to the topic of this thread - I believe it is unfair and unjust to isolate natural hormone levels as an unfair advantage WHEN we would not isolate other genetic or physical attributes as being unfair. I went to high school with a guy who was 7'1"...he was not athletic, but he started playing basketball in his Junior year and HIS HEIGHT got him a full ride scholarship to college. Was that unfair...NO WAY. If she had a sex change or resorted to other unnatural methods, I'd say kick her out...but don't penalize herself for being blessed.

ETA: I originally objected to the raising of race because there is no evidence to support that bias and as others subsequently pointed out, there is precedent for other races/nationalities being challenged with this same thing. When we look for prejudice where none exists, then we are spending too much time looking back and that will prevent us from moving forward.

[Cataboo]

I'm wondering how scientific the actual ranges used for normal testosterone levels in men & women actually are? How big of a sample size?

It somewhat reminds me of how flawed the science of testing for doping actually is. There was an analysis article in Nature about a year back on how unscientific the tests were that got flloyd landis in trouble.

[salsabike]

I'm wondering how scientific the actual ranges used for normal testosterone levels in men & women actually are? How big of a sample size?

It somewhat reminds me of how flawed the science of testing for doping actually is. There was an analysis article in Nature about a year back on how unscientific the tests were that got flloyd landis in trouble.

Good questions, those.

[salsabike]

Here's a take from a primary care sports medicine doc: http://listedasprobable.typepad.com/...-field-ch.html

[Tuckervill]

Since you asked, yes. But, I disagree with the basic premise, because:
- I cannot change how others feel...I am responsible for me
- I cannot change the past, I can only observe and be a catalyst of change in the present

I believe that NOTHING is accomplished by focusing on the past...we have to acknowledge it, but we have to constantly do gut checks in the present to assure that we are fair in the HERE and NOW.

But you walk forward every day as one who has a privilege endowed upon him by being white and male, through no action of your own. That is here and now. I'm not talking about the past. Acknowledge that you have that privilege or you can't move forward.

If you don't acknowledge that--the articles were posted to foster understanding of the issue--your gut is lying to you.

Karen

[Mr. Bloom]

But you walk forward every day as one who has a privilege endowed upon him by being white and male, through no action of your own. That is here and now. I'm not talking about the past. Acknowledge that you have that privilege or you can't move forward.

If you don't acknowledge that--the articles were posted to foster understanding of the issue--your gut is lying to you.

Karen

Karen, if anything, being a white male is a disadvantage these days...and has been for years

I understand the position you assert...I simply disagree

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Karen, if anything, being a white male is a disadvantage these days...and has been for years

uh oh.

[Cataboo]

uh oh.

My heart bleeds for him and his disadvantages... Oh no, he was forced to make more money than his female counterparts in the exact same job!

[salsabike]

Karen, if anything, being a white male is a disadvantage these days...and has been for years

Wow, this morphed into a comedy thread!

[MartianDestiny]

Come on Ladies...

Don't ya think it's just a bit hypocritical to beat on Silver for mentioning that the "race card" might not need to be pulled in this instance and then beat on him for pulling one?

Yes, reverse discrimination happens (disguised as "affirmative action" or not), and yes, middle to upper class white males are the primary targets.

To ridicule him for claiming it exists at all in areas is ridiculous; especially after pages of jumping on him about the continued existence of racism after he mentioned that an at best borderline racist comment was perhaps out of line.

But I guess because the comment was about "white society" it can't possibly be racist and that because he's "white" no one could have possibly judged him negatively (or judged someone higher, which is the same thing)...