Training for Time Trials

[Starfish]

Thanks, you two. I actually have the Carmichael book The Ultimate Ride, and he describes doing 2 x 8 minute (or 3 mile) efforts and taking the average of those two...using that rather than actual max HR. I did that one a year or two ago, and I always wondered if I was using a high enough number for setting my zones.

I mention the gasping part because I seem to have a tough time, either on the trainer or in spin class, pushing myself to what I think my actual max might be. Whereas when I am out on the bike on a really hard, steep hill, it is all I can do to keep from falling over and it seems like my lungs will just burst if I keep trying to get more air in.

I'm feeling very insecure about my HRs and setting the zones. Sometimes I feel like I'm working too hard for a given workout, and others I doubt that I'm working hard enough.

Thanks for your help.

[mudmucker]

He calls it the CTS (Carmichael Training System) field test and I'm sure it's the same. Yes it's 2x8's or a 3-mile and taking the average. He says (from empirical data) that this average is usually just slightly above lactate threshold and claims it is very close to a person's lab tested lactate threshold. The information in your book is probably similar. What I like about the Food for Fitness book is that he explains how to eat, the way fuel usage changes as intensity increases and helps you to apply it to your own training and nutrition. He ties this all in, including nutrition, with periodization.

In answer to your PM, I have found that it was a little harder to find my "spot" in the very beginning of the season when I did the test. I don't train to race and I typically don't train regularly for biking come late fall through early winter but just do other things. So in early spring when I start up, it it takes a few runs, like maybe the first 5-7 rides to get that groove back with bike fitness. It's then after that the number that I achieve from the test actually works out well. I keep a close eye on it and if my AHR is higher along with a difficult perceived effort for a particular ride I feel it later in terms of fatigue and/or recovery so I tend to trust it.

Then of course there are those days riding when your body revolts and doesn't want to do things as well as the day before. Or I can leave feeling really crappy and have a great ride. In these instances I do trust the number and sort of hold to it. If I'm doing hill intervals I ignore everything and go by how I'm feeling. I'm usually surprised how my body responds and I see improvement by sometimes, 2 rides later.

As an athelete I know my body well though. So I'm of the opinion that I'd ignore what others say about you working hard enough.

[Eden]

I mention the gasping part because I seem to have a tough time, either on the trainer or in spin class, pushing myself to what I think my actual max might be. Whereas when I am out on the bike on a really hard, steep hill, it is all I can do to keep from falling over and it seems like my lungs will just burst if I keep trying to get more air in.

I think you're not alone - I (and many others) find that indoors, on a trainer, feels much harder than the same effort outside. You've also been training for a couple of years now, and as you get more fit, it becomes harder and harder to reach your actual max.

[Starfish]

it becomes harder and harder to reach your actual max.

On some weekend that you have scheduled for recovery, if you would like to come over and pace me up Hurricane Ridge, I'm guessing I would find it pretty fast. I could buy you and your hubby a beer after, though.

Seriously, I think I need to start riding with people. I dread it 'cause I'm so slow.

OK, I guess this is getting OT for time trialing. Thank you for all your info!

[Starfish]

I think you may be underestimating your max. VT (ventilatory theshold - when you start gasping) can have nothing to do with LT or Max HR.

How important, then, is it to know one's max? Is the LT the more important thing to use when training, given that we want to increase it over time?

[Eden]

How important, then, is it to know one's max? Is the LT the more important thing to use when training, given that we want to increase it over time?

If you are using hr to train, your zones are based off of your max, so that does set the tenor for all of your training. If you are a little off it might not affect your training so much, but if you are off by a lot you can be working too hard or too easy (depending on which way you are off of course). In general your max is your max, its genetically set and really does not affect how fit you can become. LT is basically the percentage of your max that you can sustain and LT is trainable, so you can raise it. It is desirable to have your LT as close to your max as possible.

Knowing your measured LT is useful in a TT for pacing, but I think if you do a few you get to be able to feel it. They don't even have to be organized - just pick a stretch of road that you can go for 10 or 12 Km on without really stopping - you can have a turn around, most TT's have a turn around point midway, and ride as fast as you can while maintaining a relatively steady pace. If your speed falls significantly before you are finished, you've likely exceeded your LT. Like mudmucker said, some days you might not even be able to reach it without burning out, so listening to your body is important too.

Now of course in a competitive TT, when you get close enough to the finish you actually want to exceed your LT and try to time it so that you reach the end at just the point where you have nothing left. You don't want to go too early and peter off before the finish or go too late and still have steam after you cross the line. Figuring out that sweet spot is a lot harder.

As far as climbing Hurricane Ridge - Its a great ride and I do want to come and do it again some time - though I'm generally not allowed to go out and climb mountains on my rest days . There's actually a more weekend days this year without races than there have been in the past, so I might be able (urrrr - allowed....) to do it again this summer - and my A races are both climbing races, so I expect to have some longer climb workouts. If we decide to head your way I'll drop you a line when we make our plans.

[Starfish]

I'm generally not allowed to go out and climb mountains on my rest days

You would if you were doing it to pace me without dropping me! LOL

Anyhow, thanks you two...this is very helpful in giving me a handle on these things. I'm wondering if I should make an appt at Real Rehab for the HR stuff and for my body fat. Would be fun to get tested for both now, and again in, say, October.

[LainiePants]

Great thread. I too am interested in giving TTs a try. I actually have one in mind that's two weeks from now. I haven't really been training too much over the last couple months, and definitely not for a TT, but I figure it couldn't hurt to try. Plus it will be a good chance to race myself into shape Need to figure out the LT though. I'm guessing it's aroung 170. (does that sound too high?) Think I may have to tryout the Carmichael test and see how it goes.

Starfish, I totally understand your frustration with figuring out HR zones. Don't know for sure what my max HR is, though I think it's probably true that it varies with activity. Back when i used to run (last year) I got my HR up to 195. But since then on the bike I've only ever reached 187. Though i suppose it's next to impossible to ever reach one's true HRmax anyway, right? Maybe in a life or death situation...

[Starfish]

Though i suppose it's next to impossible to ever reach one's true HRmax anyway, right? Maybe in a life or death situation...

I don't know...when I was in my teens, some of the swim team workouts came mighty close for me, I think.

[aicabsolut]

Yeah, you can hit it, but it's hard.

Don't be surprised about a run/bike HR difference. Generally, for the same level of perceived exertion, HR will always be higher running than cycling. Just because.

Starfish, I aim for a TT heart rate between 175-187. A lot of that depends on the terrain and temperature. For longer TTs where I'd do less warmup, I'd be on the upper end for the first part until I essentially completed my warmup.

I'm going a bit O/T here and am going to talk about DOING TTs instead of doing interval training, LT training, or whatever in preparation for them. The training I think is best has a lot to do with strategy and mental toughness.

I'm a pretty good time trialist and getting better at it all the time. I don't train for time trials, though, and I don't think I need to, personally, unless you count attacking or sitting on the front to set the pace in a race practice as I turn on the suffering .

Time trials are more mental than anything. Other than that, you've just got to be fit and have a short recovery time. That way you can "recover" without taking it easy. Short hills out of the wind or some downhill sections will feel like recovery even though you're still going FAST. It helps me to switch up my cadence and gearing sometimes. Get in a strong rhythm for a long section and then change it up when terrain changes to soft pedal a bitwhile still keeping the pace up. In my last time trial, my speed vs elevation graph shows that I accelerated up most of the hills just because it would be windy on descents at the bottom between rollers, so by changing things up, I would really hit the hill and slow down but steadily increase my pace the whole way up. Sometimes that would mean spinning 115rpms by the top, where I'd be ready to shift into harder gears and grind away.

Generally, being a good soloist means that the flatter TTs will be better for you, because you can suffer in the wind alone harder and longer than most. However, if you've got a good soloist mentality and focus, even hillier terrain will still work for you, because some people would need someone to chase to stay focused or to push themselves harder. Good soloists also will excel the longer the TT as more of the competition gets shelled. But how do you get to become a better soloist?

Train by yourself with your computer and heart rate monitor. Get an idea for climbing zones and flat zones where you are working hard but can go forever. Experiment with your aero positioning, so ride in your TT setup alone if you have one. Pay attention to what you think is your comfortable cadence and then on the same terrain, see what happens to your speed if you change the gears up one cog in either direction. After noting any speed changes, how sustainable is it to be in whichever gear makes you go faster (this could be the easier gear)--either by making you tired or your ability to keep focused on a faster cadence.

Pay attention to your face and body and breathing. Do not spend any extra energy tightening your shoulders, grimacing, or gasping. Sometimes, I have to just tell myself to relax, take a deep breath, and shake my head. The grimace is for the final push . You must look relaxed when you pass your minute-man.

Pay attention to your hydration and calorie needs and get used to eating and drinking under that kind of stress if the TT is going to be long enough. Do this without taking much of a break, if any. Do not sit up. Do not wait too long so that you consume too much and then feel sick when tucked.

Finally, break up the TT into manageable chunks. I prefer 4ths. For me, it goes something like this: Go go go the first 1/4. Then tell myself I have to keep this up till the 1/2. I'm not even 1/2 way, I can't feel like dying yet. Sometime from 1/2 to 3/4, depending on mileage, I know I will start to lose focus. I may have gotten re-warmed up by this point and am feeling pretty good. I will be mindful of the terrain on the last 1/4 and whether I can see my minute man yet. This is where I have to work more on keeping myself in the game mentally. I watch my speed and cadence even more. I pay more attention to whether my body is relaxed. I do not let up if I can help it, but I try to maximize recovery in those places I mentioned earlier. Then in the last 1/4, it's time to really suffer. At about 2.5km to go, maximum effort. And then from 500 meters all reserves are spent with any possible remaining sprint kicking in at 200 meters.

[Starfish]

AicaB, thanks. That is all quite interesting and helpful to read.

I was talking to my coach, and I am thinking of switching up my focus this year because of ALL the snow (and now more gravel and sand) in our hills, as well as the possibility that our one mountain for sustained climbing might get shut down to bikes for road work.

Kinda thinking this might be the year of working on power in the flats.

[RoadRaven]

Great thread. I too am interested in giving TTs a try. I actually have one in mind that's two weeks from now...

So didja? didja? didja?
Have I missed a race report on this? Or did you not get a chance, Lanie?

Though i suppose it's next to impossible to ever reach one's true HRmax anyway, right? Maybe in a life or death situation...

When you want to throw up, you are almost at you maxHR. My understanding is that when you do throw up, you are there

Pay attention to your face and body and breathing. Do not spend any extra energy tightening your shoulders, grimacing, or gasping. Sometimes, I have to just tell myself to relax, take a deep breath, and shake my head. The grimace is for the final push . You must look relaxed when you pass your minute-man.

This is so important, I will just stress it again too.
Not only are you more effective if your muscles are "relaxing" into the effort (as opposed to tensing themselves into ineffectiveness) but the pschological advantage over your minute-man and whoever else you may pass is huge. Think about how easy Lance Armstrong made almost every ride look, even though we all knew he must be suffering.

And good advice about breaking the TT into chunks. Ride the course if you can. Know the distances. I know the first quarter landmark and I have a time-goal in my head for the half-way/turn-around.
I also know the landmark 5km out from the finish line, and 2km out and 1km out. I use these last landmarks to up my power output - even though I think I am giving it everything, I can usually find a little bit more...

[LainiePants]

No time trial for me yet. I've been having IT band issues. No fun at all. But I definitely see TTs in my future...

[RoadRaven]

Ah Lanie, thats no good at all!
Healing thoughts coming your way

[Suzi-Sue]

RoadRaven, this is a fab thread!

I'm hoping to get into some TT's this summer and have read through this numerous times for loads of info and tips and it's ****** fantastic!

Shall put them to good use once the summer hits, can't wait