Women's Specific Designs

[Susan Otcenas]

Hello Ladies,

I've been approached by one of the bike companies for an opinion on WSD. Instead I'd like to throw the question out to YOU. Basically, this company wants to add WSD bikes to its line in 2006 and 2007. But they want to do it right. And, they are concerned with ambiguous feedback they've received on the issue. The camps seems to be almost evenly split between WSD being the answer or just being hype/ marketing.

So, what do you all think?? Here's you chance to let the bike companies know what you want and what you don't.

Susan

[DeniseGoldberg]

It's awesome that bike companies are asking about this. I wish I could help, but I strayed into the world of custom bikes back in 1998 when I was looking for a touring bike, and I haven't looked back.

There were a couple of reasons why I went custom. One was touring. There weren't many (manufactured, off-the-shelf) touring bikes out there at the time - in fact the one that I saw was a Cannondale, which could have been OK but the frame didn't fit. OK, so that's two reasons - there weren't many bikes out there at the time that were intended for touring, and fit - and fit is probably the prime reason for WSD bikes. The other is that I wanted quality components that I could rely on when I was riding in areas where there were no bike shops to bail me out. Of course, even on stock bikes the components can be swapped out, so that's probably less of an issue.

Back to your real question though... at this point it's really hard for me to imagine buying a bike that isn't custom built for me. But - it seems to me that the WSD designs are good for a portion of the women out there - those whose bodies (length of torso vs. leg length, reach, etc.) don't fit well on the non-WSD frames. It's quite possible that I never was a good candidate for WSD because I don't remember having severe fitting problems prior to switching to custom bikes. Prior to going custom, I could find bikes that worked well for me once we swapped out components like the stem, made sure the handlebars were right, etc.

It will be interesting to see what the manufacturer who contacted you decides to do.

--- Denise

[Asphaltgirl]

Being on the, ummm, short side (under 5ft), with a short reach, finding a road bike was really tough. I was also moving from mtb to road and wasn't sure if I was going to like roading so my budget was based on the fact, that, if I didn't like it, I'd have no guilt leaving the bike in the garage! I did finally find a WSD that had 90% of what I needed for size and comfort. Still had to make some minor adjustments and, now, it's just about perfect. I wish that I had had more options for a WSD bike when I was looking, but, I guess, women don't ride bikes! Or it's difficult to move them out of a bike shop. Not sure what the male thinking is! When I'm ready to upgrade, I'm pretty sure that I would stay with that kind of design.
~~AG~~

[Irulan]

you dont' specify mountain or road.

Where bike companies get into trouble with WSD is when the marketing and shop guys use it as a fix-all for every female fitting issue. It's great for some gals, perfect for some, but some of us fit better on a regular frame. I find the education component lacking - not everyone understands that WSD is for a female of certain porportions, not just any female. I got really annoyed when I was MTB shopping, and most shops were pushing the WSD bikes. In addition, there is usually less choice for good component packages. You have one or two options, and that's it.

this is off my web page:

It's a great concept, geometry and frames just for women. This concept is for a specific body type: women who have a short torso and long legs. I ride a men's 15" Kona which fits me beautifully. I have a longer torso. Don't get locked into WSD, but go ahead and try it and see if it's right for you. For some women, it's exactly what they need. Try lots of bikes until you feel the one that's right for you. Some things you can change out on your bike are smaller brake levers, shorter cranks, and more narrow handlebars.

If your LBS (Local Bike Shop) is insisting that you try WSD, or only WSD, and treating you in a condescending manner - "hey little lady, we know what you need..." Run, do not walk, to a different shop. You deserve better than that. Try lots of different bikes.

[Selkie]

I was lucky that the LBS that I patronize is not "patronizing" to me because I'm female and over forty. When I recently bought my Dolce Elite, they showed me a "men's" bike as an alternative. I ended up buying the Dolce because I prefer a WSD bike.

The reasons: I am 5'5" but with a petite build. I am small boned, so I have small hands and regular (men) sized brake levers, handlebars, etc, are uncomfortable. Reach is another concern for me, as I prefer the shorter reach of a WSD bike because my arms are short. Then there's toe overlap. The thing I love about my Terry is the smaller front tire, which gives me greater control over the bike and eliminates the toe overlap. Interestingly, my Dolce has a regular tire but the geometry of the frame is such that I haven't experienced any problems w/toe overlap. WSD bikes have always felt more comfortable to me and consequently, I feel much more confident in the saddle.

[SadieKate]

I’m pretty much with Irulan on this one (with maybe one exception) and think the components are the primary problem as well as education of the LBS. I am just tall enough to find production frames but I find that shops are just now learning that the combined top tube and stem length is the first place to start with short women. Too frequently someone just says, “Use a shorter stem.” Stems 1) aren’t readily available in a short length and 2) can really play havoc with the intended handling of the bike if it is too short or too long.

WSD bikes frequently have lower end components that are heavy and don’t provide the performance of the higher end gruppos. Campy recently emailed me with some gibberish about loosing breaking power if they designed their levers to accommodate small hands. Since numerous other road and mtb component manufacturers have managed to use shims, screws and design to solve the problem, you would think Campy could also. Suspension that requires a spring, elastomer or oil is set-up for heavier riders and the LBS and mfgr won’t supply/fit the bike with the proper component. A small-size stock bike should be ready to go for the smaller rider.

Q-factor – don’t get me started! Women are more susceptible to knee problems and our pelvis width is all over the place! I think a lot of knee pain could be solved with narrower cranks. Many pros have custom pedals with shorter spindles to deal with this. Many of the boutique manufacturers address this issue, but bike companies will only spec bikes with big name components due to the profit/cost factor.

Carbon – I was just shopping for a carbon road fork. I can’t tell you the list of manufacturers/models I went through with my LBS until we settled on one that wasn’t built for a Clydesdale. The industry seems to be petrified that someone might think a fork has any flex at all. This results in components that are rigid for a 175-lb rider but are jackhammers for smaller riders. Tell your contact that lower modulus is OK, not to be afraid of it. If the CSC team asks for more compliant forks to ride Paris-Roubaix, I think the mfgr should be listening and thinking about others who might also have these concerns.

Carbon forks do bring me the next topic. Generally, unisex production frames are fine if you know how to get a proper fit but the tubing can be highly over-built for lighter weight folk. This is probably the only area where a WSD frame might be called for. There are lots of men who need small frames (51cm and under). They wouldn’t want a flexi-flyer and will have an even bigger toe overlap problem. The bike companies are really between a rock and a hard place here. I don’t know how to solve this issue in the real world of cost/profit.

Wheels are the same issue – all of these factory built wheels with high profiles and few spokes provide a lot of stiffness for a heavier racer but I know a bunch of people who regret buying them. At the end of a century, you want comfort not stiffness.

I think I should end my rant now. I truly do appreciate you and the bike company asking for input. I’m afraid you got the tirade building from twenty years of struggling with bikes and clothing in a male-dominated industry. Thank goodness more and more people and companies are listening.

[emily_in_nc]

I am all for any manufacturer adding a WSD line. It is always good to know that women's needs and interests are considered when designing and specifying bikes!

I am a pro-WSD gal. I am built the way WSD fits - short (5'2"), with longish legs in relation to my torso. As a result, I need a shorter top tube than would be predicted based on my height and inseam. The smallest mens size (usually 50 cm, occasionally 48 cm) is always too long on top for me. My ideal top tube length is right around 19", certainly no more than 19.5" at the high end.

That said, I also want a long enough stem (8 cm minimum) that the front end of my bike handles well. This helps when climbing out of the saddle, cornering, etc. I have a Terry bicycle that came with a 6.5 cm stem, which I now realize is too short for optimum handling. I like my handlebars to hide the front hub when I am in the drops or hoods, and I'm behind the hub on my Terry. I have an Aegis Swift I built up from a frame (19.1" top tube), and with a 9 cm slanted stem (8 cm effective), the front hub is perfectly hidden when I'm in the drops and hoods. I like that. The bike handles great, and my back has the proper stretch and his happy.

Another reason I need WSD with its short top tube is that my femurs are long for my height. As a result, I need a setback seatpost and to slide my saddle back far on the rails to achieve a knee over pedal spindle position, or slightly behind, as I prefer for leverage. That need limits the top tube I can use.

I also need 38 cm handlebars; you can only find these on smaller WSD bikes and/or change them out later.

I love the short-reach brake levers but don't require them as my hands aren't really small for a woman. I have them on my Terry but not on my other two road bikes.

I don't require short cranks (165 mm). I have them on my Terry but have 170s on my other two road bikes (and my mtb) and prefer them for greater leverage when climbing. I know they would bother some womens' knees, though, since they are longer than would be predicted for someone of my inseam (28").

I have to have a womens saddle, and one with a cutout. I prefer the Terry Butterfly ti.

I guess because I do have experience with several different bikes, and am opinionated about what I like (for instance, I prefer a compact double crankset to a triple), I probably would not buy a stock WSD bike again (other than my first ever mountain bike, which I bought from REI this winter; I couldn't even think of fitting a mens model), but for newer riders just testing the waters (or trails - like me with my mtb), I think WSD is a great option for a certain percentage of women built in a particularly common way for our gender.

Like others have pointed out, though, WSD bikes don't work for every woman, and more experienced roadies would be more likely to embrace them if more WSD models used the lighter, higher-end components experienced roadie men want.

Even though WSD isn't right for every woman, I definitely appreciate any manufacturers attempting to reach out to us. There seems to have been a huge increase in women roadies in the past few years, and bicycle manufacturers can't afford to ignore us if they want to capture this important market segment.

Thanks for the chance to speak out on this important issue!

Emily

[Dirt Girl]

At 5'1" with unusually short arms, I've owned two WSD mountain bikes and the road bike I bought this year happens to be WSD. I've bought all of them not simply because they are WSD but because they fit me. All of the WSD bikes with their shorter top tubes work better for me, and come closest to my ideal length, than any non-WSD bike I tried. I also like features such as smaller handlebar diameter on my mountain bike and the stock 36 cm handlebars on the road bike. I use the 165 cranks on both bikes. But that shorter top tube is what sells me.

Choices are so much more limited for people on the extreme small end of sizing. I think WSD simply expands the choices for women. That's a good thing. Make a small bike without the WSD label (that's not custom) and I'd be happy to try it out. Bottom line: if the bike fits (WSD or not), ride it!

[Pedal Wench]

I'm split on this issue. My first bikes were both WSD - Cannondale R1000's, which were top-of-the-line WSD from Cannondale. I loved the fit. When it was time to upgrade to CF, I was very limited in WSD designs, so I just shopped geometries to find one that was close enough for me to work with. Getting a high-end WSD is pretty tough. Getting a standard geometry and then swapping out components what I think we're forced to do (I built mine from a frameset, so I could pick my components). I'm probably right on the line, in that I don't think I've got particularly long legs, but I firmly believe that some women need a bike built for their bodies.

[Surlygirl]

I'm also pro WSD. Seem like us short stuffs need the WSD to get a bike that fits. I'm only 5' and finding a bike to fit me has been a challenge. Seems like if you are in the middle (avg) you have much more choices and can choose either men's or women's frames.

I have the same problems as the rest. Once you get the top tube short enough then you run into toe overlap. I've got an almost non existant stem on my Surly and it makes handling really squirrely. Its also hard to find 165 cranks with high end groups. I couldn't stop my bike without short reach brake levers and like the extra set on the tops. And the 38 handlebars are short and shallow. I've only ridden 700c wheels but most LBSs I've been in only have one or two bikes that have the 650s.
Even my mountain bike, a Gary Fischer Xsmall, well lets just say I have NO standover room.
The biggest problem is when you are a small female and looking to test ride bikes, there just aren't that many choices out there and most shops I've been in seem to carry sizes for the average male.

[spazzdog]

I've never ridden a WSD... but that's niether here nor there. Whatever the bike, I have rarely experienced a bike shop that paid women much mind in the fit department. It's like "sell it and roll her out", unless you pepper them with questions and prove you know something. I've had shops try to sell me a bike, saying it was a "great" fit just because my grrl-bits had a smidge of clearance on the top tube.

Whomever the manufacturer, they should demand that the shops representing them become proficient in properly fitting the customer. A happy customer is a return customer.

[Ali]

I totally agree with spazzdog's comments. I rarely visit my lbs (only a mile away) because of their sales attitude. If they have it on the shop floor and you can stand over it, they tell you it fits. I got my first mtn bike from them and it was way too big (16"), unfortunately I didn't know any better at the time.

I now have an XS racer-X that I built up myself choosing components that I wanted like SID SL fork that my next lbs (TX) kept saying would be awful, they had a lot of flex and I should buy a Mazochi (sp?). And I'm stood looking at these guys saying I weigh just over 100lbs, how am I ever going to flex anything.

That being said, I got a WSD road bike last fall and I love it. I test rode a lot of 48 cm and 50 cm men’s frames, but they were too long, even with shorter stems. Too wide and deep in the handlebar, and I could only get my finger tips on the brake levers. However, most WSD bikes were a major disappointment as far as components were concerned. I didn't want dura-ace but I definitely didn't want sora/tiagra. I also wanted 700cc wheels as for our biking household; it’s easier to keep stock tubes and tyres readily available.

In general, I think WSD is a good idea, as it may enable more people to have bikes that fit them. However, I find that component wise, most WSD does not offer a wide range of options and that often WSD are priced higher than a comparably equipped men’s frame. Women should not be penalised because of our smaller size and mass - we deserve the same wide range of options that are available to men at no greater cost.

[Masiguy]

Ok, the cat is out of the bag...

I am Tim Jackson, the Brand Manager and "head" of Masi Bicycles. Susan was kind enough to post the thread on my behalf so that unbiased replies could be generated by all of you. Your feedback has been wonderful and I greatly appreciate all of it. I was formerly the Inside Sales Manager at Canari Cyclewear and worked with Susan quite a bit and she is wonderful, so I came to her (and you) for feedback to my questions.

I could post for hours here as there is so very much to reply to, from all of your comments. So I don't know where to begin or what to say exactly. However, I would like to offer a direct link to me so that this forum does not become biased as a sales tool by me. Let's face it- I do need to sell bikes.

I maintain a blog site and would like to invite you to visit so that you can cast a vote there. I have a poll right now about WSD bikes and your votes would give me "hard numbers" to be able to back my plans and goals. Also, I would like to share my email address with you so you can contact me directly- tjackson@masibikes.com.

Again, I do not wish to abuse Susan's wonderful generosity, so I will refrain from posting further.

Susan did give me permission to say "thank you", so thank you for your invaluable feedback on this issue.

Sincerely,
Tim Jackson
Brand Manager
Masi Bicycles

[Irulan]

LOL, there aren't enough options on your poll.

*wsd needs to have better component options
*train lbs peeps to understand parameters of WSD

[sarahkonamojo]

I am 5'2", 28" inseam, longish femure, short arms. I ride a terry Symmetry which has been a good entry level bike. It has allowed me to experience long distance rides in (mostly) comfort. But certainly, it is time to upgrade. And, oh yeah, the 24" tire is a pain.

It is frustrating because I know I want more of a bike, but being able to test ride/find it is difficult. the idea of ordering custom is scary because I could be wrong... Locally, small bikes sell fast and/or are a special order.

I did have the opportunity to test ride a Trek Pilot 5.0 (47cm) for 65 miles in Colorado terrain and really enjoyed it. I was amazed that with even a larger frame, it rode well. But I want to test ride more bikes, so that I can learn more about what can help me go faster and smoother with more comfort.

All road bikes are rooted upon the young male racer paradigm. Bike design has changed recently to accommodate more of the average population with various riding styles. Seems to me a lot more could be done regarding efficiency and comfort for women on bike, regardless if they can fit a "standard" frame or not.

thanks,
skm