Changed my stem today-WOW! riding on cloud 9

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I've been riding my new Rivendell Rambouillet for about 6 weeks now. I just LOVE it.
But when I got it, I had been a new rider, used to a borrowed hybrid bike's upright position, so I had no way of knowing if my position was "right" on this road bike with drop bars- I had to rely on the Rivendell dealer guy and my DH looking at my position to tell whether things fit me or not. They both knew a great deal, and I trusted them, but they could not know all the subtle adjustments that might be needed, of course, they couldn't feel what I felt. For that I had to ride a lot and figure out what needed changing based on my long term comfort.
ONe thing we did suspect from the beginning is that perhaps it came with a longish stem intended for the typical male buyer. I am an average sized woman 5'5". Here is a photo of the rather long 9cm stem it came with:
http://harmonias.com/LisaBike_7.jpg

I had started out with some adjusting to the bike that made things "easier" for me as a new rider: seat all the way forward, handlebars tilted up in front so I could reach the brakes better, seat height somewhat lower than it should be. These adjustments were like my "training wheels". I knew they were not ideal, especially the lower seat. But I had to get used to this new bike and feel "safe".
Over the past weeks, I began to actually FEEL how some of the things were not quite right in my bike fit. I moved my saddle back more. I moved it up higher so my legs weren't so bent. I tilted my handlbars back down where they should be. But still, I simply could NOT ride with my hands in the drops and I still felt like I was falling too far forward onto my hands. But I had no experience to compare it to!
After 6 weeks it became clear that I was feeling stretched forward too far with my hands and it wasn't just because I was a new rider. We figured the stem had be shorter so the handlebars would be closer to me and I wouldn't feel I was holding my weight up with just my hands. We got a 5cm stem to replace the 9cm one. It sat in the garage getting dusty, waiting for me to get brave and say OK let's DO it!

Today we made the big change. It was quite an interesting learning process which took several hours and my DH and I enjoyed learning how to pull things apart and put them back together!
We left everything as is on one side of the handlebars (cork tape as well), but on the other side we had to do many things to swap the stem:
--remove interruptor brake and bracket.
--remove the hood and the main brake lever
--remove the cork and multiple tapings (they were on GOOD!)
--disconnect rear derailler cable from back cassette for sufficient slack
--and the hardest was figuring out how to remove the bar end shifter and cable. We had to consult Shimano diagrams.
Once all that stuff was off, we pulled the handlebar and stem up and out and slid the stem off, working it around the curves of the drop bar.
Then snaking the new stem onto the handlebar, and reversing the whole dis-assembly process.
Then we had to put back the two brake sets and get them set right, reconnect the shifter and derailler cable and retune the tension on the back derailler and get it working smoothly changing gears.
Once everything was in place and re-positioned and adjusted just right, I went for a nervous test ride.

Well, I just couldn't BELIEVE how much more comfortable my whole body position was! What a drastic and immediate difference. Instead of my weight always down and forward towards my hands, I felt i was centered in the middle of the bike and riding on a cloud!! I could now EASILY ride with my hands in the drops, and could reach the brakes easily with my whole hand now! I could reach the bar end shifters easily now. I was whooping with joy at DH while I rode round and round and up and down the street....the difference of just that approx. inch and a half was truly phenomenal. I had NO IDEA I could feel so comfy on drop bars!! Now I knew how unbalanced my weight HAD been these past 6 weeks.
The weird thing was that although my body was now bent down more, I was so much more comfortable, sort of like the feeling of being comfortably curled on your side in bed. Hard to describe, but even though I was more bent down I felt as though I could just take my hands off the handlebars and would be totally fine pedalling along without hands to hold me up at all. Maybe that was because by having my saddle back further (where it belonged) it put my legs further forward and my legs were able to keep my weight balanced better. My legs felt really good because now and I felt more power in pedalling and was able to straighten my legs more on the downstroke (but still not straight all the way, that would be not good). The new stem was also 1cm higher, and that made it easy to sit up straight on occasion and put my hands on the tops of the bars and relax and ride stretched up for a change when I wanted. All kinds of new riding positions opened up to me now and were suddenly comfortable.
We did some fine tuning adjustments to the rear derailer again so it wouldn't touch the chain at either extreme, and tightened everything up once we knew we had everything just right.

Next we had to learn how to wrap the cork bar tape onto that naked side of the handlbar again. We had the untouched side to copy, and it really went pretty smoothly and looked good. Then we did the fine "hemp twine" wrap treatment around the last inch where the cork tape ends at the stem, as a nice finishing touch- it came out perfect!
Lastly, I used 2 coats of amber shellac over the natural cork tape and twine, on both sides. This made it a nice honey color which kind of coordinates with the honey leather Brooks saddle. Also seals the tape and keeps it from absorbing hand dirt. I had not done this originally because we had anticipated the possibility of maybe having to change the stem to a shorter one when we brought the bike home. Smart move, turns out.

Anyway, my whole point with this story is to say that sometimes a bike might be made more "woman specific" anatomically by something as simple as a few centimeter difference in stem length. I can only imagine how many other women might be on bikes with long stems and might feel way more comfy by making this change.

I am so thrilled at the new feel of riding on my blue "cloud".

[annie]

Happy for you Lisa!!! Glad such a simple adjustment made such a world of difference.

annie

[emily_in_nc]

Hi Lisa,

Glad to hear the stem change worked for you; however, one reason for WSD bikes with shorter top tubes for a given seat tube size is so that standard (9-10cm) stems can be used. A 5 cm stem is quite short and can cause the front end of your bike to handle a bit squirrely. I used to ride a Terry Isis with a 6.5 cm stem, and that was one of my few complaints about it. When I changed to a bike with a 9 cm stem, I instantly felt more in control of the front end.

Here's a little article on determining the proper stem length for you that you (and others) might find interesting; I knew nothing about stems when I started riding and have learned a bit since then!
http://www.ehow.com/how_14135_determ...rect-stem.html
Good that you moved your saddle back - moving it all the way forward to better reach the handlebars isn't very good for your knees or climbing power. Ideally, a plumb bob dropped from the front of your kneecap of the leg in a 3 o'clock (front horizontal) position on the pedal should intersect the pedal spindle, or be behind it, not in front of it, which is how your initial set up might have been. This is sometimes called KOPS (knee over pedal spindle). If you have to move your saddle way forward to comfortably reach the bars, your top tube is probably too long....

Emily

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Hi Lisa,

Glad to hear the stem change worked for you; however, one reason for WSD bikes with shorter top tubes for a given seat tube size is so that standard (9-10cm) stems can be used. A 5 cm stem is quite short and can cause the front end of your bike to handle a bit squirrely. I used to ride a Terry Isis with a 6.5 cm stem, and that was one of my few complaints about it. When I changed to a bike with a 9 cm stem, I instantly felt more in control of the front end.

Here's a little article on determining the proper stem length for you that you (and others) might find interesting; I knew nothing about stems when I started riding and have learned a bit since then!
http://www.ehow.com/how_14135_determ...rect-stem.html
Good that you moved your saddle back - moving it all the way forward to better reach the handlebars isn't very good for your knees or climbing power. Ideally, a plumb bob dropped from the front of your kneecap of the leg in a 3 o'clock (front horizontal) position on the pedal should intersect the pedal spindle, or be behind it, not in front of it, which is how your initial set up might have been. This is sometimes called KOPS (knee over pedal spindle). If you have to move your saddle way forward to comfortably reach the bars, your top tube is probably too long....

Emily

Thanks Emily!
I read the article:
"Correct stem length for your bike by Trevor Williams
To get an approximate length for your stem, first ensure that your saddle height and position (front to back) are correct. Now place your elbow against the front of the saddle with your hand outstretched, the center of your handle bars should be approximately 3cm (two finger widths) beyond the finger-tips of your outstretched hand."

Happy to report that my new stem puts my bars at the above recommended 2 finger width position exactly.

I think you are right about that KOPS thing- and that is now corrected as well with my seat not all the way forward anymore. Now my saddle is right in the middle position on its rails, so I am more comfortable and I still have leeway for further fine tuning. When we chose the new stem we took into account that we would be wanting to slide the seat back a centimeter too. So overall difference after all was said and done is 3cm.
I don't think my top tube is too long- I feel SO comfortable and balanced now! Rivendell frames have different dimensions and more relaxed geometry than most typical road bikes (that's also why they are sized differently)- they make them specifically to be more comfortable for longer riding under diverse conditions- not just for racing.
As to the "squirrely" front steering issue.... what I have found is that whenever I have steering issues it is usually more that my bars wobble too widely back and forth as I avoid stones and holes, and this swinging side to side thing gives me a feeling of going out of control. I actually think the tighter steering arc will be very welcome to me.
Thanks for your ideas!

[DebW]

The other benefits of a long-enough stem (or a short-enough top tube) are that you can get more weight over the front wheel when descending, which makes high speed more stable, and you can get your weight further forward when standing on climbs. These things may or may not be important to you, depending on how you climb and how fast you descend.

[jobob]

I use shorter top stems on both of my Rivendells, the 70 mm stem instead the 100 mm. Made a world of difference for me, too.

I didn't notice any difference in handling going from the 100 mm top stem to the 70 mm.

And I'm told by those in the know that I descend pretty quickly....

[Kano]

The other benefits of a long-enough stem (or a short-enough top tube) are that you can get more weight over the front wheel when descending, which makes high speed more stable, and you can get your weight further forward when standing on climbs. These things may or may not be important to you, depending on how you climb and how fast you descend.

So, Deb, in a sense, what you're saying is that it's no wonder we who ride upright hybrid/comfort bikes may be a bit spooked on downhill runs? The design of the bike makes it inherently a bit less stable and so we have more shimmies and wobbles? This would be why we like our brake levers a lot while on descents?

(and things I've read lately on climbing lead me to think it wouldn't hurt to find someone to give me climbing lessons!)

Karen in Boise

[Rebeccah]

Thanks Emily!
I read the article:
"Correct stem length for your bike by Trevor Williams
To get an approximate length for your stem, first ensure that your saddle height and position (front to back) are correct. Now place your elbow against the front of the saddle with your hand outstretched, the center of your handle bars should be approximately 3cm (two finger widths) beyond the finger-tips of your outstretched hand."

Alright, well that explains my 25-year-old problem with my bike, then. It's always felt like I was falling over reaching for the handlebars, and I've always been actually *more* comfortable on the drops, which curve back closer to the saddle than the top part of the bars. It's like 3-4" from the tips of my fingers to the center of the top of the handlebars.

Looks like next week I'm shopping for a new stem.

Rebeccah

[emily_in_nc]

Alright, well that explains my 25-year-old problem with my bike, then. It's always felt like I was falling over reaching for the handlebars, and I've always been actually *more* comfortable on the drops, which curve back closer to the saddle than the top part of the bars. It's like 3-4" from the tips of my fingers to the center of the top of the handlebars.

Looks like next week I'm shopping for a new stem.

Just don't miss this quote from the article:
"Realize that if you have to buy a really long or really short stem, your frame probably doesn't fit you well."

The author doesn't define what he means by "really long" or "really short", but I'd tend to wager than anything < 7 cm would be considered "really short" (compared to most bikes, which have stems in the 9-11 cm range or so) and > 12 cm is "really long". I know Lisa is happy with her bike with only a 5 cm stem, and that's great, but not everyone would be happy with the handling of their bike with a stem that short, since all bikes handle very differently.

My Terry with a 6.5 cm stem had twitchy front end handling to the point that I really couldn't climb out of the saddle at all. I blamed it on myself, while now I know it was a combination of the short stem, narrow handle bars (38 cm measured outside-to-outside) and small front wheel (24"). I also realize now that I could have probably used a 9 cm stem on that bike as my fingertips actually touched the bar when doing the saddle/elbow test mentioned in the article, and my bars were well behind my front hub on that bike when I was riding.

To explain that, another way to see if your bars are in the right place and stem is the right length is to look down at your front hub while riding on the brake hoods in a comfy position (this works for drop bars only). If the hub is obscured by the top of the bar, that is supposed to be ideal, but if the bars are behind the hub, your stem is on the short side and handling may be sacrificed, as it was with my Terry. If your bars are way in front of the hub, your stem is long and you may need a larger frame size. Similarly, if the bars are behind the hub, your stem is short, but you're in a comfortable position, you might actually be in one size too large a frame. Not that you can't be comfortable on either, but it's not "ideal" per what a professional bike fitter would recommend.

My Bike Friday also has narrow handlebars and a short stem (7 cm) because they didn't make the top tube quite as short as I wanted (I was hoping for a 9-10 cm stem), but the bars perfectly obscure the hub when I ride, and the handling is actually better than my Terry, even with a 20" front wheel! And on my Aegis, which I built up after my Terry, I ended up with a 9 cm stem, obscured hub, and I could climb out of the saddle on the very first ride -- something I'd really struggled with on the Terry!

So that's one more place that handling can be sacrificed with a too-short stem: out of saddle climbing. If you don't ever climb this way, then it's not a big deal, but I wanted to be able to do it.

Just more food for thought. I have had quite a few bikes, many too big for me or just not right for one reason or another, so have become pretty picky about sizing, the more I've learned. Now, all my bikes fit me very well (2 road, 2 mountain).

Emily

[Kalidurga]

Hard to describe, but even though I was more bent down I felt as though I could just take my hands off the handlebars and would be totally fine pedalling along without hands to hold me up at all.

I read somewhere that one of the old pros, Hinault or one of those guys, said that on the bike your arms should feel as if you could play piano. Sounds like you nailed it, Lisa That's the one thing I've yet to get quite right on the fit of my bike. I think I'm just gonna have to go talk stems with my bike tech.

Interesting idea of shellacing your bar tape, I've not heard of that before. What does it feel like under your fingers?

[KatyLady]

Very interesting Lisa. I have just recently moved from a Hybrid to a road bike and have felt like I have a bit too much pressure on my hands - not as balanced as I would like to feel. Sounds like I need to do a little stem research myself. Guess the first thing I need to do is figure out how to measure the one I have.

[Veronica]

So did you replace it with a Rivendell lugged stem?



V.

[jobob]

show-off

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

So did you replace it with a Rivendell lugged stem?
V.

No Veronica, I didn't. Those lugged Nitto stems only come as short as an 8cm (my original stem was 9cm), and I needed a 5cm if I also wanted move my seat back to where it should be, in the middle area of the rails (which I did). Total handlebar position difference I wound up with was 3cm back after moving my seat back too.

I don't think I'd want to spend $200 on that lugged stem- especially when Rivendell sort of admits they are not as perfectly made as thier own frames, they say: "It is hand made and it shows. If you look closely you can see the brazing material around the edges of the lug. This is not a bad thing it just adds to the character. Each one is unique and takes a long time to make. To make a lug stem as perfect as our Rivendell frames it would easily cost twice or three times as much." (You mean like $500 for a stem??? I'd rather buy a new bike wardrobe!)

My bike feels great now with the new stem I put on however...looks just like the one that came on the bike but shorter. Went for a 15 mile ride yesterday with the new stem.
I love the slightly tighter steering feel to my front end with the 700c tires. I had no problem at all standing up to muscle up steep hills. And as I mentioned in another thread, I set a personal speed record downhill at 36mph yesterday, -partly because I can now go down in the handlebar drops comfortably, which I couldn't do at ALL before, had to stay on the hoods downhill. I can also now reach my bar end shifters more easily.

As Emily brings up though, there are multiple factors to take into account. Aside from everyone's body being differently proportioned to begin with, there is frame geometry, wheel size, handlebar width and height, seat and leg position, upright or bent down body position...I guess limitless factors which can come into play when adjusting one's biking position. I also think that this stuff becomes more important if one wants to ride with more specialized purposes (long distance touring, racing, centuries, off-road, etc), rather than just riding around town or to the corner store.