Just how important is standover height? (v. v. long!!)

[christine]

Hi, I'm new to this group and new to bicyling. I posted earlier on the Terry bikes thread since I'm 4'10" with about a 26" inseam and (surprise) have a hard time finding a bike that fits.

My husband and I plan to start riding in the neighborhood and hope to work up to making biking a workout and a sport we can enjoy for a lifetime. We would stay on paved roads and maybe some very smooth trails.

I initially thought I wanted a road bike until I got on one and realized I was too intimidated by the positioning of the drop down handlebars. I also had back surgery as a kid and need to keep my back as straight as possible (not necessarily upright, just not bent or curved). My husband also can't use the drop down handlebars (sorry if I'm not using the correct lingo) since he had neck surger several years ago.

We decided to check out hybrids and mountain bikes that we could swipe out tires for use on the road. I checked out many reputable shops in the area (northern calif) and was not able to find a "perfect" fit. Of the few bikes that seemed to have the correct frame size, I had absolutely no clearance over the top bar.

The only bikes with a standover height I could clear were comfort bikes and/or had "step-thru" top tubes that I didn't want. I did find a Gary Fisher women's design mountain bike (standover height 25.7") I could clear, but the top tube was too long (21.7") and made me stretch to reach the handlebars.

Other bikes with short enough top tubes had standover heights way too high. On those that almost fit, I still had to go on my tippy-toes to prevent womanly injury (even then, I was still "touching" the top tube, no actual clearance). Most bikes were too long in both standover height and top tube length.

The women's bikes that came close but didn't quite fit included:
-Giant "Boulder" 12.5"
-Novara "Piedra" 12"
-Gary Fisher Tassajara GS 13"
-Raleigh M20 12"
-Trek 1500WSD 43cm

I tried finding a Terry bike, but the one local store I found that carried Terry's did not have the models I liked (Susan B, Trixie, Classic), nor anything close to my size in the Terry's.

GETTING TO MY POINT . . . My husband and I ended up buying Marin bikes. We both got Marin, Alp Series "Mill Valley" bikes (here's a link: http://www.marinbikes.com/html/spec_millvalley.html). At first we were just looking at them for my husband and I laughed at the suggestion that I try out the 13" since none of the women's 12" frames fit me.

However, once I sat on the bike, the fit was soooo comfortable. The top tube was just right (20.5”), and even better when they adjusted the handlebar. We rode around and both fell in love with the bikes. I was just shocked with the bike's comfort and it felt well-crafted and like something we would not outgrow (ie, we could eventually reach our top speeds on the bikes).

The only problem with the bike was the standover height (28-3/8”). I could not get total clearance, but was able to "touch" the top bar if one foot was on tippy-toe and the other flat on the ground. (So actually it was better than some of the bikes where both feet were tippy-toe, or I couldn't even “touch” on tippy-toes). I really liked the bike's fit and the riding felt so good I bought it.

We brought them home, rode a few more miles and really enjoyed them. My only concern is that I didn't follow the first advice I got on bike fitting, ie proper standover height. This doesn't seem to affect my riding, except when I stop I have to lean on one leg and tilt the bike a bit, which my husband insists is normal.

I am so paranoid about the standover height that I called more stores and found a store that carries Terry bikes!! I decided I’d return the Marin if the Terry was clearly the bike meant for me. I tried the 11" Terry "Susan B" and had easy clearance over the top tube (standover is 24.1") and no problem with arm reach (19.9" top tube). The bike rode nicely and was very comfortable. However, except for the standover height, I was not struck by a sense that THIS was the perfect fit for me as compared to the Marin. Also, the bike didn't feel as nicely made or that I could get anywhere nearly as fast as the Marin since it's a hybrid.

The store did carry the Terry "Classic" road bike, which had the flat handlebars I like and felt like I could really go places on. I tried the 17.5", but the standover height (27.8") felt the same as the Marin (ie, just touching with one foot on tippy-toe). The store said they can order the 16" Classic for me to try out (26.3" standover which might work), but at $1,150 it’s just too expensive for me.

They said they supsect the Susan B would be the only bike that would fit perfectly, esp with its 24" front & rear tires. They felt strongly that I have clearance over the top tube for safety reasons and were surprised I could ride a men's 13" bike with 700c tires.

THE QUESTION . . .
The store put the Susan B on hold for me and I'm going back on Saturday with my husband and my Marin for comparison. However, assuming the fit on these bikes are as I've described, I'm wondering just how important standover height is? My husband insists it’s not as important as the overall fit when I’m riding.

I guess I’m really looking for permission to keep my Marin, or a very compelling explanation as to why standover height is so critical that I should try to find another bike. Thank you for reading this crazy-long post. I would appreciate any feedback and advice.

~Christine

[han-grrl]

Hi Christine

I am under 5'2 so i understand the difficulty trying to find a small enough bike...

i race on mtb, and standover height is pretty darn important, since inevitably, you WILL fall when you mtb...(Ouch!) in some cases you need to be able to quickly put your feet on the ground, and you may not have the luxury of coming to a nice rolling stop and prepare yourself.

if you are doing light recreational riding on paved paths you are probably a bit safer, but keep in mind that if you need to stop suddenly and put your feet down, you may hurt yourself.

personally i would go for the bike that is the proper fit, since i DO have the proper stand over height and i know what it feels like to land on the frame (did i say ouch )

[christine]

Ouch! That makes a lot of sense.

As you can see, I'm totally new to riding so I don't know what it's going to be like when I crash. I'd read discusssions on other message boards that it's unlikely anyone would crash in a way that they'd land their privates directly on the top bar, ie they'd just totally bite it and land on all parts.

But it makes sense that perhaps not for just the big crashes, but the sudden stops you described, that standover would really make a difference. Thank you so much for helping me understand.

[emily_in_nc]

Hi Christine,

I responded to you on the other thread about Terry bikes. I agree with han-grrl that standover is really important. I would not buy a bike I couldn't stand over, and at 5'2", I don't think I could ride a bike with two 700c wheels! I am currently riding a 17.5" Terry Isis with 24" front wheel and have my eyes on bikes with two 650c wheels for the future (when I can afford to upgrade to carbon fiber).

Anyway, I just wanted to point out a possible source for a Terry Classic (16") at a lower price than the current new price. These are fantastic bikes (I test rode one before choosing my demo Isis last fall) and might really meet your needs - the componentry is better than the Susan B, so the Classic would probably last longer, and it has the flat bars you want. You do get what you pay for, so you might want to consider upping your budget just a bit to get something that really fits you right and you will use and enjoy for many years to come. As a very small person, you just might have to pay a bit more to get something that is just right for you.

I don't know if it is still available, but someone listed a 16" Classic for sale on the Terry site this summer, so have a look at this link:

http://www.terrybicycles.com/Trade/sell.lasso

Also, there are 2002 demo Classics (in 16") available on the Terry site:

http://www.terrybicycles.com/Bikes/saleclass02.lasso

The 2002 model is a gorgeous lavender color - that's the one I test rode last fall. Stunning bike! I loved the thumb shifters too. You can also get it in silver if you prefer.

Keep us posted on what you decide to do!

Emily

[christine]

Hi Emily:

Thank you so much for your post. I don't think I'm comfortable buying a used bike privately until I've test-ridden, but I'm definitely interested in the 2002 Classic demos you linked me to. Also, I checked the 2003 models again and the Classics have just been reduced to $900, which is much closer to my budget. This is a price change from just yesterday (Isis, Symmetry & Madeleine are also reduced)!!

I'm really hoping the 16" Classic will fit since it has a 26.3" standover, which is just about at my unprofessionally measured inseam. Like you said, it's totally the kind of bike I want -- road w/ flat bars and feels a lot better-made than the Susan B.

I'm concerned, though, that even if the standover and top tube are okay, that a 16" frame is just too big for me. The Marin I got is a 13.5" and feels very comfortable in size, as were the 12" and 13" men's and women's bikes I've tried. The 17.5" Classic I sat on felt huge, as did a 15" Trek women's sized frame I tried. I wonder why Terry doesn't make frames smaller than 16" (other than Susan B)?

I'm hoping the 24" tire in front will help the bike feel smaller overall. Speaking of tires, is there such a huge difference in feel between 650 and 700's? My Marin has 700's and it feels fine to me, but I've been hearing from a lot of people who think they're short who say they have to have 650 tires (btw, 5'2" is v. tall in my family ) . Is there a difference in speed between 700, 650 and 24" tires? I'm going to ask the LBS that sold me the Marin if they can swap the 700's for 650's to make the bike shorter, but I doubt they can since I assume the frame was made for the 700's?

If the Terrys don't work out, I'm really torn as to what to do. I'd either (1) keep the Marin (which I do love) and get used to the standover (or lack thereof), (2) look for a mountain bike with a step-thru frame, or (3) reconsider a comfort bike. I just wish I could get on a bike and ride . . .

Well, thanks again for all your help. I'll let you know what happens.

[emily_in_nc]

Hi Christine,

Glad to be of some help! I can't say if a 16" Terry frame will work for you, but I do know that different manufacturers have different ways of measuring frames, so it may not be bigger than some of the others you've ridden even though they claim to have a smaller size. You already know that the standover is *less* than your Marin, so that would seem to indicate that their way of measuring frame size is quite different from Terry!

It would be great to see if there is any way to locate a 16" Terry in your area to try out. Barring that, you can get all the geometry measurements off the Terry site for that size, and probably also off the other manufacturer's sites to compare various measurements. Top tube length is especially important to make sure your reach to the handlebars is correct. You could compare the top tube of the 16" Terry (19.3") to the length on your Marin or to any others you've tried, as it should be on those manufacturer's sites. Here is a link to the Classic geometry:

http://www.terrybicycles.com/Bikes/classicgeo.lasso

Just one datapoint - there is a woman in our bike club who is either 4'10" or 4'11", and she has been happily riding a 16" Terry for years. She just upgraded from a Symmetry to a Titania (titanium). She has very short legs too!

As far as I know, you can't swap 700 and 650c wheels - the frames have to be built for them.

Good luck - I am very interested to hear what you do! If you do decide to go with the Classic, I'd go with the 2002 demo - there's probably not a significant difference between that and the 2003, and the difference in cost would buy you some nice accessories!

Emily

[emily_in_nc]

Christine,

One more thing I nearly forgot -- when you measure your inseam, make sure to do it in your cycling shoes as that will increase it and thus make the standover more. So, if you're 26" in bare feet, say, you might be 26.5" in your shoes. I have road shoes with cleats that raise me up even more, which gives me good standover on my 17.5" Terry Isis. Its standover height is stated as 28'2", and my bare feet inseam is just 28. In my bike shoes I have a good 1" of standover space!

Hope this helps!
Emily

[christine]

Emily:

Again, thank you so much for all your help. I'm very encouraged to hear your club member is my height and fits a 16" Terry frame. I wrote to Terry and they were so quick to respond -- wow, really great customer service. They did say their frames aren't similarly sized to the Treks (the smaller front tire helps).

Yes, I've been checking the geometries of ALL bikes I've been looking into. I've focused on standover height and top tube length. My Marin's top tube is just right (20.5"), the Terry Classic's top tube is 19.3", so it should also be good. Unfortunately, I could only locate one LBS that actually carries and will continue carry Terry bikes, and they only had a 17.5" Classic in stock. They are of course happy to order the 16" for me with no obligation to buy.

The great news is that Terry sale prices should be honored by Terry dealers, so I should be able to get the 2002 Classic thru my LBS at the sale price. Can you tell me what it's like buying a demo?

The bad news is the Terry rep said I still might not be able to clear the 16" Classic, since the standover ht is 26.3" and my inseam is 26.25". He gave me tips on measuring and also suggested I measure my clearance over the top tube on the 11" Susan B as another way to measure my true inseam. I'm trying it tomorrow (fingers crossed!).

BIKE SHOE QUESTION . . . (i'll cross-post this question under the general "accessories" forum in case you're the only person reading this thread! )

I've been measuring my inseam with my tennis shoes on as I don't have bike shoes. When we got the Marin's, we had the option of clipless pedals, but I was a bit afraid of using them. Mostly though, I didn't get them because (1) I can't really afford them now and (2) I have an extremely hard time finding regular tennis shoes to fit so I figured I'd never find bike shoes to fit and would never get to ride my bike!

I'm now seriously thinking of getting bike shoes so I can gain that extra inch or so of height. Heck, maybe I'll wear them everywhere so I can reach things off supermarket shelves!

I don't know anything about bike shoes, though. Is it "cleats" that click into the clipless pedal? Do non-cleat bike shoes also give you xtra height compared to regular tennis shoes? Can you wear those with pedals with toe-clips?

I wonder if the Classic has an option for the clipless pedal? (I'll check with the Terry rep on that).

Also, do know some good, affordable brands? My feet are so freaky (short, but very WIDE), I wonder if I need them custom made. If so, do you know how much custom shoes would be?

Wow, so many questions. You've been SO helpful -- I really appreciate it!!

~Christine

[emily_in_nc]

Hi again Christine!

Smart idea contacting Terry! They are so nice and helpful, aren't they? I have always gotten wonderful service from them, and it sounds like they gave you some great advice. And yes, they do let you order a bike from their site through your local Terry dealer with no obligation to buy, which is a great deal!

As for ordering a demo, what I did is email Terry and tell them that I wanted to buy an Isis demo in the 17.5" size, and they told me that I would need to go through my local Terry dealer, who would order it for me. I printed out the page on the Terry site with the bike (and price) I wanted and took it right to the bike shop. They ordered it, assembled it, and yes, they did honor the sale price (I am sure they must get a dealer discount, so that is their profit). They added the shipping fee of about $25, plus tax. So, it couldn't have been easier!

Glad the top tube seems fine on the 16" Classic, now you just have to figure out standover!

Shoes...I am not sure about getting them in wide width as I have normal width feet (I wear Lake shoes - got them on sale for $39.99 at Performance), but I would definitely recommend cycling shoes, not tennis shoes. You need the really stiff soles of a bike shoe to deliver power to the pedal. Terry makes a pedal that is only $50 and has a clip on one side for cleated shoes and a regular side on the other side for non-cleated shoes. That would seem to be a really good option for you. You can see the pedals right on the web site, and your local bike shop can order them, or you can order them directly after you have the bike.

The road bike shoes with outside cleats are the ones that give you the most added height. They are a bit harder to walk in, though. Mountain bike shoes with recessed cleats add some too, but not quite as much; however, they are easier to walk in.

You can also buy non-cleat (but stiff soled) regular bike shoes and wear those with toe clips and straps. You might feel most comfortable starting out with those (that's what I started with years ago). They won't add more height than your tennis shoes, though.

With any shoes, I would definitely recommend trying them on at bike stores before you buy. I would not order them online b/c sizes vary incredibly between manufacturers, and many are sized with European sizing, so you have no idea til you try them on exactly which size to get! So, you might be limited to stock on hand, which stinks when you have an odd-sized foot.

I hope I've answered most of your questions. I expect you'll get more good feedback on shoes/cleats etc. on your other thread, and your bike shop(s) can help there too.

Keep me posted! I am really excited that the Terry Classic might work out for you - that would be great! Will the original shop take back the Marin if you decide you'd rather have a Classic?

Emily

[christine]

Hi Emily!

Thanks again for your quick reply and explanations. I think I'm understanding the shoe thing now. Sounds like I'm gonna look into road shoes w/ cleats now!! Yes, I'll definitely try them out in-store. I could never buy shoes online/catalog b/c my feet are so freaky. Wow, you must have a great image of what I look like!

The two different sided pedal sounds good. I talked to my Terry LBS and he said the pedals are the easiest things to swap out. phew.

I also talked to the LBS that sold me the Marin and he confirmed I can't change from 700 to 650 tires. When I first talked to them about returning the Marin, I was told store credit only. I was so po'd at myself for not checking about the return policy before I bought, which I otherwise *always* do. I was also not too concerned, though, since I planned to make a huge fit in the store tomorrow (on a Saturday) about them selling me a bike that didn't fit, etc. It's a really shi-shi (sp?) store in a nice neighborhood with "high maintenance" customers so I figured it would work. I'd also report to the BBB and let everyone on every message board know about them. Fortunately, I talked to a manager and he said it would be okay (he also got the name of the salesman who sold me a bike with negative clearance).

Anyway! I'll definitely keep you posted. Thanks again!!!

~Christine

[emily_in_nc]

Good for you making sure the bike shop would refund your money! They really should since they sold you a bike you could not even stand over. That is not right, and anyone who works in a shop should know that! That is like the first rule of bike fit, and I suspect the employee who sold it to you just figured you were a clueless newbie and wouldn't know better. Ah, he underestimated your ability to learn!

I also wanted to point out yet another forum I just found on the Terry site today. You have to click on "bikes" to find it (I don't know why they bury so many things off their main site), but it has some helpful answers from Terry employees that might be of interest to you. Here's the direct link:

http://terrybikes.forest.net/phpBB2/index.php

Good luck!
Emily

[christine]

Hi Emily:

Thanks for the link. Yes, I think the Terry website's kinda weirdly organized. I NEVER would have seen the 2002 Classic on sale if you hadn't given me the link. Nor would I have seen the 2003 reduced price since I'd just checked the prices the day before and written them off as too expensive.
And guess what? We ordered the 16" Classic (2002) today!! I owe it all to you!

I rode the 17.5" Classic today and the frame actually wasn't big for me at all. When I stood over the top tube, I could stand with both feet flat although I was "resting" on the tube (but no pain ). The standover on the 16" frame is 1.5" less, so we think it'll work (fingers still crossed!). I was also able to reach the handlebars and levers easily and it rode very nicley.

I'm not going to get road shoes with cleats just yet, although I'll definitely start looking into them because I know it will be hard to find a fit when I need them. My husband's worried I'll have a hard time adjusting to them (which was my initial feeling), and I agree I should wait for now.

We're returning the Marin tomorrow. I'm definitely a lot more optimistic now. It's been very frustrating and depressing to not fit anything. I also just hated that feeling that I bought the wrong bike even though I really loved it.

Anyway, I just want to THANK YOU again for all your help and support. You've been so great! I can't wait to start riding too. I'm so excited!
I'll definitely let you know when the bike gets in!

[emily_in_nc]

Hi Christine,

I am so excited that you ordered the Classic! That is fabulous news! Based on your most recent test ride of the 17.5", it sure sounds like the 16" will fit you to a "t"!

I think you're smart to hold off on the clipless pedals for now. I do think you'll want them later, but they do take some getting used to, and it's better to be a bit confident at bike handling first before using them, I think. Plus, this will give you plenty of time to find some shoes to fit you for when the time comes.

Hopefully the return of the Marin goes as smoothly as possible. I know you'll be glad ot have that over with.

I am sooooo glad to have been of help. That just makes my day! I guess I've found my calling in life at long last....to help newbies to cycling find their way.

Please do let me know when your bike comes in. I can't wait to hear how you like it and how it fits you. By the way, which color did you get?

I am so happy for you!!!

Emily

[christine]

Yes, you can be my "virtual mentor!" Seriously, you can look into helping other riders of all levels. I'm going to look into finding a class for new riders so I don't develop bad habits early. See, you can lead one of those in your area!

Oh, and the return on the Marin was very painless. They were very cool about it. I guess it was just that one guy who first answered the phone who was so slimy. (phew!).

I ordered the silver Classic, but I'll take whatever they've got! The purple looks pretty too, but they didn't have it in the shop so I didn't want to order it without seeing it. I'm just shocked I have any choices in selecting a bike!

I'm so anxious to ride. My husband took his bike out a bit today, so I rollerbladed behind him. I had to dust those blades off it's been so long, but I just wanted to get out there. Now that's a feeling I haven't had in a looooong time. I can't wait for my bike -- I'll keep you posted!

Again, thanks for everthing!
Christine

[emily_in_nc]

Hi Christine,

I got your private message and am so sorry that you have left (or at least un-registered from) the forum. I read the thread in question and don't think anything you said was wrong or inflammatory. You seemed to be the voice of reason to me among some of the others that weren't so reasonable. Please come back!

If you won't, please email me directly because I do want to hear about your new bike when it arrives! I am not sure if I am supposed to put my email address in a post, but it is emilys7@earthlink.net. If it gets edited out, click on my profile and there is a button that allows you to email me directly, since I don't know your email address and you no longer have a profile.

I really want to hear how things turn out for you!

Emily