Newbie question on "fit" for those with experience (advice sought)

[Roar]

Hi there. I have a newbie question for the more experienced crew out there. It concerns fit and finding a bike. I'd like to hear what women have to say about this....

I’d appreciate your input.

I am looking to buy my first road bike. And I apologize in advance for the longest post ever….

Here’s a little information about me:
In the past couple of years I've rediscovered my mtn bike. I've been riding it a lot on the roads. I have decided I like cycling!
I like to go out for 30-40 miles / 3-4 hrs per ride
I ride 3-4 times a week.
I’ve never really ridden a road bike (except lately at the bike store) or in clipless pedals.
I am positively pokey on the mountain bike (though I love it) and I have decided I want to do a triathlon. Hence the need for a new bike.
I am very competitive and reasonably athletic. So, I aspire to speed. ;-)

I’m female, 5’2”, with a 30 inch inseam.

I travel a fair amount and I’d like to take the bike with me sometimes. Read: it’s gonna fly, but only a couple of times a year. This is not of primary importance.

Budget: Around $2k but I am still deciding on this. I’d like to get as much bang for my buck as possible. That makes me think I’d get more buying a lightly used bike off ebay or CL.

But I really need to figure out what I need to buy. And I have no clue.

Fit…
I know everyone talks a lot about Fit. From what I can tell, “fit” is 90% fact and 10% preference. I have been to 3-4 bike stores and hopped on a few bikes. I’ve found that most of them want to sell me whatever bike they have in stock (of course & understandable) and all have some tale about what “fits.” “You’re a 49 in a Specialized Ruby and at 51 in a Cannondale,” they say….

Maybe. But I want the bike that is right for ME.

And I ride these bikes and I have been on everything from a fancy Cervelo to a basic Bianchi to a Kona to a Specialized and the list goes on… and all I can say is this:

I can tell these bikes feel DIFFERENT. Is one good? Is another bad? I can’t tell.

Obviously, if the frame is grossly oversized, I know the fit is not right.

However, I don’t know enough to hop on a bike and know I am going to feel OK on it after 50 miles….

Plus, I know geometry varies across manufacturers so size isn’t apples-to-apples across brands. Furthermore, bikes seem to come with different stock size components like stems / cranks. If the frame fits me (in theory) how can I really tell if a bike is going to be “perfect” without customizing the fit with stem / cranks?

Frame…
Also, with regard to frame materials, I have heard everything from “don’t get carbon because you’ve never used clipless pedals and you’re gonna fall over and break it” to “carbon is too much for you right now” to “buy carbon because you’re gonna want to upgrade soon.”

So, here are my questions:

1) How does one develop any sort of preference or feel for fit if you’ve never really ridden a road bike?
2) I know people say “ride to determine fit” but this apples-to-oranges geometry /componetry combined with my complete lack of experience and taste is confusing me. What can I possibly get out of cruising around the parking lot of a bike store?
3) Given that cranks / stems/ etc can be customized, should I get measured at a good LBS and figure out what sized frame in a given manufacturer I need and target that? Once I get the right frame size, then go and have the cranks etc fitted?
4) What kind of frame should I go for? Aluminum? Carbon? Titanium? (I like 3+ hr rides. Comfort matters. Also, remember the whole pt of this bike is to do triathlons.)
5) What bikes should I be looking at? I am in Europe and frequently in the US so everything is on the table.
6) Finally, for what it’s worth, I’d prefer not to look like some jerk on a way overly expensive bike for my skills….. but I would like something I could grow into and be somewhat competitive with.

Thanks in advance for your input.

[zia]

Roar,

You sound a lot like me -- I just began doing triathlons on my mountain bike and had a very similar experience road bike shopping. I had NO IDEA what to feel for, and my head started whirling. These things helped, a bit...

1) Components.
This was very confusing. From researching, I knew I wanted 105 components, but wasn't sure if I'd actually know the difference. I found a LBS who was willing to set me up with three differently geared bikes and let me ride them around and around, focusing only on how the components felt -- not at all on the bike fit. They even gave me specific things to "feel" for -- e.g, try downshifting going downhill on the Sora components, etc. This was enormously helpful and confirmed my certainty that I wanted to spend the money on 105 (at a minimum!).

2) Frame
I wish I'd done a similar experiment with bike frame, but I was too distracted by "bike fit." How can I focus on the ride when I'm worried about reaching the brakes? And I definitely felt like I needed a longer distance test ride to appreciate the difference. I'm sure other people will have an opinion on this -- my own experience was very frustrating!

You may want to see if a LBS has a bike you can rent for a longer ride, though that gets pricey. I know the one I go to lets you put a portion of that rental fee toward a new bike.

I finally found a bike shop who was willing to measure me and make specific recommendations based on that, but... just after I made the appointment... I responded to an ad for a Terry bike and all I can say is that I felt so different the moment I hopped on it that I never looked back. All the things that felt slightly *off* on bike after bike vanished. And that was the end of my story! (Almost... but that's another post.)

My ultimate strategy was to not spend more than $1500, ride that bike for 1-3 years so I could develop a vocabulary and set of opinions about what I like and dislike, and at that point either stick with that bike or sell it and move onto something more expensive, once I knew I was committed to the sport and understood what I wanted as a rider.

GOOD LUCK!

[yetigooch]

first off, buy the bike that is the most comfortable to you. A comfortable bike is one that you'll ride often. For a road bike, fit is everything. A bike that does not fit properly will cause aches down the road. I would spend the money and get a reputable LBS to fit you properly (I can recommend a few if you live in Seattle). As for components, I personally wouldn't go below shimano 105 if you can afford it (it's like buying a Honda...there are better nicer cars out there but it sure is reliable). Frame material is a personal choice. Don't shy away from carbon if you can afford it and like the ride quality. Carbon frames are much more durable than they use to be....just beware and not buy cheap carbon. Set a price range that you want to spend on a bike and see what falls into that price range. Don't buy carbon just because it's carbon. Personally, I would buy a higher end aluminum bike than a cheaper carbon bike because the ride quality of the higher end aluminum bike will be nicer. Again, a really good LBS should direct you into the right direction.

[Roar]

Thanks, both of you, for your input.

Zia, did your immediate "comfort" on the new bike translate to long-term comfort? Also, out of curiosity, have you done a triathlon on your new bike?

[zia]

It did translate, once I paid $50 for a professional fit. My husband "fit" the bike before my first ride (30 miles), and my shoulders were very sore the second half. The pro fit undid everything he did and put on a longer stem (which I knew I needed when I bought it). When I finish a ride on that bike, I am left wanting more miles! I can fly up hills without getting out of my saddle -- hills that I was definitely out of my saddle for previously. I feel relaxed and strong.

I have -- unfortunately -- not raced on it yet. Just days before my first Olympic race, it was stricken with the 2007 Terry Head Tube Crack Virus, and is now waiting in my bike stable for a replacement frame, due within 6 weeks. I ended up renting a road bike for the race (different brand, similar size), and while the bike shop very patiently tried to get as close to my original bike as possible in terms of measurements, etc., it just wasn't the same. I didn't hurt, but the steering was more barge-like, the gears less responsive, my cadence slightly off... Made me very glad I bought the bike I did!

[aicabsolut]

So, here are my questions:

1) How does one develop any sort of preference or feel for fit if you’ve never really ridden a road bike?
2) I know people say “ride to determine fit” but this apples-to-oranges geometry /componetry combined with my complete lack of experience and taste is confusing me. What can I possibly get out of cruising around the parking lot of a bike store?
3) Given that cranks / stems/ etc can be customized, should I get measured at a good LBS and figure out what sized frame in a given manufacturer I need and target that? Once I get the right frame size, then go and have the cranks etc fitted?
4) What kind of frame should I go for? Aluminum? Carbon? Titanium? (I like 3+ hr rides. Comfort matters. Also, remember the whole pt of this bike is to do triathlons.)
5) What bikes should I be looking at? I am in Europe and frequently in the US so everything is on the table.
6) Finally, for what it’s worth, I’d prefer not to look like some jerk on a way overly expensive bike for my skills….. but I would like something I could grow into and be somewhat competitive with.

Thanks in advance for your input.

1 and 5) For me, I just knew. I got on some bikes and I HATED them. I talked to the LBS guys about what I didn't like (too twitchy, too small/cramped, whatever). Then they had me ride other bikes to compare the ride. I found that in one manufacturer, I had to go way out of my price range to find the "ride" I enjoyed. With another, I got on the bike and thought, this is it. Then it came down to 2 similar models within the same brand. Ultimately, slightly better components and a less aggressive geometry won. I could still make the fit a lot more aggressive with the stem angle and headset down the road, which I did after about a month or so and then again about once a year for the next couple of years. Try to pinpoint what the differences are that your feeling and qualify them.

2) See if you can take some longer test rides. In the US, you can often just give the shop your license and credit card and hit the road for a bit. Try to differentiate component performance (shifting and braking, primarily) with geometry / frame material and performance (responsiveness to accelerations, responsiveness or smoothness in cornering, smoothness climbing and/or descending). You probably won't get a favorite of either, but you can weed out the bad (shifting horrible, gear range difficult / too easy, braking hard).

3) You probably don't need detailed measurements done. A lot of sizing has to do with your flexibility. You may have shortish arms or a short torso, but how flexible is your lower back? How far forward should you have the saddle because of your femur length? Any of that can affect your functional reach to the bars. With so many compact geometry frames, seat tube height and standover height becomes less important. Then it comes down to how much seat post would you have exposed on size X. Would that mean the bars are very low compared to the saddle? Can you handle that? If no, then maybe you should see if you can go up a size.

4) You can get a good carbon bike for 2k. It probably won't have super wheels or top notch components, but the feel of the carbon ride might be enough to persuade you to stick with it. BTW, don't worry about breaking the frame. Yes, you need to be careful about overtightening parts (on all frames) and taking care of it, but if you fall, particularly at 0 speed while learning to use clipless, odds are you aren't going to break the frame. If you do, then you probably fell on a curb, and your ti or aluminum bike could also be trashed. However, one caveat is that no matter which frame material, you get, it's good to have a replaceable derailleur hangar. These things can get knocked off our out of alignment fairly easily when the bike is dropped or banged around. Not being able to fix it means your entire frame is trashed.

Back to the choices.. Titanium is going to be in a similar price range to carbon. I don't have enough experience with ti, but I think you'll find fewer bike models made with it than carbon or aluminum, so it could just come down to whether you like the selection. There are a lot of good aluminum bikes out there, though for race quality bikes, most manufacturers have moved away from aluminum. Cannondale and Cervelo still make a good quality race bike in all aluminum (CAAD9, S1). I say that because you can still get some nice components for your 2k budget on an aluminum Cannondale that no longer comes stock on an aluminum Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc. Because the frames are cheaper, these will be better components than on a $2k carbon bike. Plus, these frames are probably stiffer than the entry level carbon.


Finally, it's probably not in your budget, but it could be for used.... The main issue with flying with the bike will be packing it in a bike box. So, bikes with seat MASTS (not removable seat posts) are not a good idea, because they may not fit in the box. Also, if your fit changes over time, which it probably will, then once you cut a seat mast you are stuck with that height.

[Roar]

Thanks, aicabsolut. That's helpful.

It's good to hear that carbon is not *that* fragile. I have had a few bike stores tell me not to get one because they'll break, but it could be because they don't have one to sell me. (Not to be cynical.... really, though, that's why I am on here trying to learn what's what.)

I just got back from a 44 mile bike ride and at my pokey rate of 10mph or so, that's a good 4+ hours on the bike. I actually feel OK, but a bit stiff. I really like these long rides. I think I could stay out longer if I were more comfortable. That's why I was interested in carbon...people seem to talk about their comfort. Right now, I am doing all these miles on a Stumpjumper and I think I could really step it up with a bike with some speed / comfort. (Plus, I want to do this triathlon in the spring, so I had better get this road bike thing figured out over the winter....)

Do you think carbon is the most comfortable? (I suspect people have all sorts of opinions on this...)

I don't want to whack out a pile of money on an unknown ---a first road bike in general---who knows if I'll take to it--- but I really think I need to upgrade and I definitely want it to be as comfortable as possible....To your point, I want to give myself as good a shot at liking this as possible.

Oh, and re Zia's point about components, I have a hard time wrapping my small hands around the hoods and getting a good grip on the brakes (I think they've all been Shimanos of various sorts.)

Someone else has mentioned t look at SRAM / Campagnolo. Any thoughts on that?

[Biciclista]

People that like carbon will tell you carbon is most comfortable; i ride steel and as a scientist, i will tell you that mass absorbs vibration, so of course I believe that steel is more comfy than carbon. Carbon is very light so if your main objective is to go fast; maybe that's what you should get. They do break, but a good one comes with a replacement guarantee.
I wasn't sure at first about what felt right. Do pay for a professional fit; they can see where things are going to be a problem and then later, if something does come up, they will usually give you a "tuneup"

so you need shallower handlebars. There are many varieties out there right now for women with short arms and small hands.

I have all Campagnolo/Campi Record. it's expensive as the dickens (I got mine used) but it's GREAT!! the Veloce gruppo is less expensive
and it's a joy to use.

[OakLeaf]

Shimano makes Ultegra-grade short-reach levers (R700 for 10-speed, R600 for 9-speed). If you're buying a complete bike (usually the most economical way to go in the lower price ranges) many WSD bikes, especially the smaller frames, come with short-reach brifters. They're nice levers, with a choice of shims to adjust your reach. As Biciclista mentioned, different handlebars - and the position of the levers on the bars - can change your reach to the levers as well. Shallower bars won't do that, though - "shallow" describes the vertical distance between the tops and the drops. "Short" describes the distance in the horizontal plane from the stem to the farthest point forward in the bend.

The only Campagnolo I've ridden is 1987 Record, and I never rode SRAM, so can't speak to what's out there now, but I've heard that Campy levers are friendlier to smaller hands than the standard-reach Shimano brifters. I never had any trouble reaching the levers on my old race bike.

[mrhughes]

It's overwhelming, isn't it?! So many choices and information and advice coming from all directions. I can only share what I've learned from 13 yrs. of road biking.

Brand: All brands make good bikes. The more expensive the bike, the better it generally is. Money really does buy you something measurable on a road bike. Better frame materials, better components, better wheels, better tires, better...

Frame material: Aluminum is the cheapest, usually, and thus is found on most "entry level" bikes, and it's a harsh ride. If you haven't ridden anything else, you'll think it's great until you take a test ride on something carbon, steel or ti. Then the aluminum bike suddenly feels like a tuna fish can. Steel has been around forever and it is the most comfortable, but it can weigh in a bit heavier than some of the spaceage materials. Titanium is light & responsive, but has fallen out of fashion in the face of carbon. I am way too heavy to ride a full carbon bike, so mine is a combination not found in the US - steel & carbon. Bikes here are aluminum & carbon. If you are of normal weight and can afford it, carbon gives a very sweet ride. If you are overweight like me, carbon is overkill.

Components: Big payoff here for extra $$ spent to upgrade. I have no preference between Shimano & Campy. I have both. But I've had lower end components - Shimano 105's, for instance - and there is a definite benefit to having the upgraded versions. Shifting is dependable & seamless at the high end.

Fit: I have to share my fit experience. In the US, a good bike shop will put you & your demo bike on a trainer and measure all sorts of things - leg length, torso reach, seat height, crank length, etc. etc. Then you buy the bike and spend the first year tweaking the thing to correct little problems, like the handlebar stem being too long or too short and the seat height not being jussstttt right. I fell in love with Scapin bikes on a trip to northeastern Italy. I went to the Scapin bike shop, where no one spoke English, to be measured for a bike. They looked me over, pulled a bike off the rack and motioned for me to straddle it. They looked me over again, had me get up on the bike while they held it in place and peered hard from different angles. They made some notations on a bicycle order form that had a graph of a bike frame at the top. I came home with the paper & a dream that one day I might go back for a bike. Three YEARS later, the opportunity came, and I faxed them the measurement sheet they had given me. In halting Italian/English, I ordered a custom bike to be painted tangerine orange, for pickup on a specific date. I was nervous! What if it didn't fit? What if it was all wrong? Guess what - it is a perfect fit. I've ridden it for 5 years now and haven't changed a single thing. The Italians know how to make a bike! It is an interesting combination of steel & carbon, beautifully crafted.

Flying: Do not put much hope in flying with a bicycle in, or to, the US. Almost none of the airlines will accept a bicycle now, unless it's a folding "Bike Friday". They have modified their weight and size restrictions such that it is impossible for a bike to pass their rules. Delta still allows SOME bikes, if you can pack them down small enough, at $300 per bike, per flight. I am not kidding. Check their websites. I can no longer take my bike to Europe, so I'm not going.

Fun: This is THE most important factor. Keep test riding some bikes. A good bike shop will let you take it for an hour or so - usually if you leave your drivers license or a credit card - and allow you a chance to really feel it out. You will get on a bike eventually that just sings, and you'll know. Perhaps it's the pretty paintjob combined with the good components, or perhaps it happens to fit you to a T. But it will feel like FUN. That's the one you buy! Then ride the hell out of it - and don't compare what you have to everyone else - just ride, ride, ride. It's pure joy.

Good luck to you and we want to see a photo when you've made your purchase!

[aicabsolut]

I love the carbon ride. Some of it is about absorption of road buzz, but a lot of it is about responsiveness that comes from lateral and torsional stiffness. As a new cyclist, I didn't really know what this meant. Now I can discern the differences between frames more. However, when I got on carbon after trying out some aluminum bikes, I just loved it. So, yeah, if you want to race on it, I vote for carbon, but I'm biased. Whether it's worth your money is up to you. Plenty of people love steel, aluminum, or ti.