Park police disturbs me

[denny]

There have been 2 incidents at Stone Mountain park in Atlanta where the police has attempted to slow or stop a 40 rider peloton while in motion by 1. Pulling the squad car broadside in front of the group and 2. Last week, an office stood in front of them with hands out to stop them. The second incident resulted in a nasty tumble for the rides 1 of whom were tended to by park paramedics and transported to a local hospital.

It is beyond me how such tatical maneuvers can be deemed necessary even if the riders were in violation of riding more than 2 abreast after sunset. The presence of fixed structures such as curbs, trees can lead to severe injury or death in the event of a collision. I'm not sure how the peloton exceeding 30 mph represents a danger to the public for the police to employ this tactic.

I have friends who ride with this group and worry that without a formal complaint this can only escalate into 2 things. They can either forbid such groups from riding through the park or worse yet there will be an eventual fatality from this dumb tactic. Is anyone aware of such incidents elsewhere? Is seems this is an extreme measure for a moving violation (if you want to call it that

[ZenSojourner]

How would you suggest that the officials stop 40 riders riding in a pack through a public park after dark at over 30 mph?

Perhaps the answer is for the riders to stop breaking the law.

How about the hazard these guys represent to everyone else on the road, vehicles, pedestrians, even animals?

[denny]

How would you suggest that the officials stop 40 riders riding in a pack through a public park after dark at over 30 mph?

Perhaps the answer is for the riders to stop breaking the law.

How about the hazard these guys represent to everyone else on the road, vehicles, pedestrians, even animals?

Hey Zen- they come through at 6:15PM. It's not dark yet. However, assuming they are riding single file or double file then speed would be the factor and yes, slow down is the correct answer. I still believe that the maneuver is an over reaction and is rarely used by state and local PD unless there is an immediate danger to public. This does not rise to such a level as it is a 5 mile strip with a fairly low presence of vehichles and pedestrians pretty much stick to the designated areas.

[Zen]

Please do not confuse the original Zen with the ZenSojourner.
I offer guidance only, never admonition.

Thank you and I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

[Cataboo]

It's a moving violation... if you're in a car and police want to stop you, then they chase you, turn on the lights, etc... If a police officer has a speedtrap on the side of the road or whatever and steps out into the road to motion you to stop.... you stop and pull over. This isn't something that car drivers complain about.

What are the reasons that the park police are upset at the riders? I'm guessing its for riding after sunset more than 2 abreast since that's what you mentioned?

If it's after sunset, the roads are empty, and I'm in a park... I can't drive 100 mph hour just because noone's there. I can't drive on the wrong side of the road just because noone's there.

Most parks around me close at sunset. Most parks around me also have pretty anal park rangers and police, but... they're doing their jobs and they're enforcing the rules, because quite a few people think they don't apply to them.

You're afraid to complain about these incidents because bikers may lose the priveledge of biking through the park... So... why can't the bikers follow the rules that the park has set on them riding through the park?

Yes, it's unfortunate that some riders got hurt... but you also have to realize that if you're on a bike and you can't stop when there's an obstacle in the road, or you're in a pack of bikes that can't stop when there's an obstacle in the road... be it a police car or a human... Then something's wrong, you're really not biking all that safely on a public road.

[Irulan]

t is beyond me how such tatical maneuvers can be deemed necessary even if the riders were in violation of riding more than 2 abreast after sunset.

well, there's your answer right there. Perhaps if your group contacted the authorities ahead of time for an event permit or special road closure or what ever it takes to not be in violation of the laws, the cops wouldn't do what they did.

[uforgot]

I offer guidance,only, never admonition.

Thank you and I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

You forgot to add wonderfully witty sarcasm!

[Cataboo]

You forgot to add wonderfully witty sarcasm!

I've seen her admonish a helpful shaggy man in a kilt.

[ZenSojourner]

Hey Zen- they come through at 6:15PM. It's not dark yet. However, assuming they are riding single file or double file then speed would be the factor and yes, slow down is the correct answer. I still believe that the maneuver is an over reaction and is rarely used by state and local PD unless there is an immediate danger to public. This does not rise to such a level as it is a 5 mile strip with a fairly low presence of vehichles and pedestrians pretty much stick to the designated areas.

Originally you said:

even if the riders were in violation of riding more than 2 abreast after sunset.

Which makes it sound like they're riding after sunset.

The problem is this has happened twice, which seems to show a disregard on the part of the riders in this group for warnings already given.

If they're speeding, they're speeding, they need to stop doing that. If they're breaking other rules, they need to stop doing that as well.

Whatever the rules are they need to comply with them. There's no excuse for drag racing by cars on isolated stretches of road, even if there isn't "usually" much traffic there. Same rules apply to bikes. Using the same tactics to stop bikes that are used to stop cars isn't a fault on the part of the police. If you're going to fast to stop, whether in a car or on a bike, you were already in the wrong. There IS an immediate danger to the public when you've got a peloton zipping down a public access road like this.

The point is its not a race track, it's a public road, and there are plenty of reasons people might be walking along a well-lit, public road, with kids and dogs in tow, or kids might be walking along there. It's an issue of public safety. It would appear this has been happening on a regular basis, hence the concern and intervention of the local gendarmerie. In order for the cops to be there on two occasions in the right place at the right time, there must be a pattern of disobeying the rules to which they are responding.

Nobody wants anyone to get hurt. But I don't see how much choice the cops had. At the very least, the first attempt to stop the peloton should have been considered a warning, and yet the group repeats the same offense again?

[Cataboo]

We don't know how often the police have complained to the bike group or not. Or other bike groups if there's multiple bike groups that are doing this...

The faq on the stone mountain site says that you can ride a bike if you do it single file on the road.... not even the 2 abreast that seems to be the Georgia standard.

I know around here, the police routinely step out in front of your car and wave you over if you're violating HOV restrictions, don't have your personal property tax sticker, or you're driving in a shoulder to get to an exit faster in traffic.

None of those are terrible traffic violations that require a person to physically step in front of your car, but cars stop without crashing, and deal.

[ZenSojourner]

We don't know how often the police have complained to the bike group or not. Or other bike groups if there's multiple bike groups that are doing this...

I'm pretty sure the first time they stopped the peloton ought to have counted as a warning AND a complaint.

Also, a peloton is fairly anonymous - how would you "complain to the group" if you have no idea of what the group is? I'm wondering whether there have been complaints by non-cycling citizens, possibly newspaper articles . . . in any case, having been stopped once, this group apparently chose to ignore the warning and continue the objectionable behavior.

I like riding my bike on the kind of roads described here, and frankly a high-speed peloton overtaking me and passing me would scare the living daylights out of me, probably would force me off the road if I could get there without crashing . . .

[withm]

Well we are only getting one side of the story with out the benefit of the laws and or rules in effect in the referenced park.

Sounds to me like it's time for the leader of the peloton and perhaps one eloquent accomplice to sit down for a meeting with the police chief and work out what will, and what will not be tolerated, and to educate the police on the dangers of the methods used to try to stop them. It would be good to get a crash course on the law in that jurisdiction, and may do well to consult a bicycling attorney.

There was a recent blog entry "When the Cop Says Stop" by Bob Mionske posted at Bicycling.com on this very subject, this time in Ohio. It was a peloton of two, but similar situation. It is very long, but just goes to show what happens when things escalate:

http://bicycling.com/blogs/roadright...-disobey-cops/

Now there is a equally interesting response in a "A “Cop” Responds" by Mark Wheeler, a Florida cyclist, and cop.

http://bicycling.com/blogs/roadright...-cop-responds/

The lesson is to pick your battles; there is a very fine line between being right, and being dead right.

Let us know how this turns out.

[Cataboo]

The FAQ for stone mountain park says that biking is allowed and bikes must ride single file on the road. And that there is a bike lane on one side of the mountain.

I only brought up whether or not there were complaints before in response to people asking was it really necessary for the police officers to step out into the road or pull the car out to stop the peleton... If there have been multiple complaints before to the bike groups whether it's when they're pulling into the park or out of it by the rangers (I have no idea how this park looks), or comments yelled at them... And if these complaints have been steadily ignored, I can see why a police officer would think that stepping out into the middle of the road is reasonable...

And if nothing else, the fact that there were crashes means that the peleton really isn't riding in a controlled fashion that they can respond to obstacles or pedestrians.

Btw, thanks for teaching me the word peleton, which I find very cool.

[ZenSojourner]

I called this afternoon and spoke with the assistant Police chief at Stone Mountain.

They have a different version of the incident in question.

Apparently there have been ongoing problems just in the last 5 years or so with large, fast moving pelotons in the park. They estimate there were 70 riders in the peloton involved in last week's incident. The officer with whom I spoke is a 34 year veteran of the park police force and apparently they had only isolated incidents of problems involving cyclists until just the last 5 years or so, when apparently some local racing clubs decided the multi-use paths (not bike paths) in the park would make excellent training routes.

The officer in question was not trying to flag the peloton down, he got caught in the crosswalk and if he was waving his arms around it was probably to wave them off because he was afraid of getting hit. He saw the group at the top of the hill as he started to cross the street but had no idea they were traveling as fast as they were and they caught him crossing the road IN THE CROSSWALK. Regardless of maximum speed limits posted, any pedestrian in a crosswalk means STOP. If you are going too fast to stop for a pedestrian in the crosswalk, you are going too fast.

The peloton was taking up the entire width of both lanes in that direction. According to both Georgia state law and park regulations, cyclists are to ride in one lane only and not more than 2 abreast, with the additional rule that they ride single file on weekends because of the increased traffic from all park users (pedestrians, cyclists, and motor vehicles). The officer involved reported that the peloton leaders shouted "PEDESTRIAN" as they whizzed past, but did not stop or slow down, with the result being that those following them did not stop or slow down, but rather split around the man in the crosswalk. Georgia law states that all vehicles - whether a car or a bicycle - are to STOP when there is a pedestrian in the crosswalk.

Four cyclists ran into each other. Two were driven by friends to the hospital, one for a shoulder injury and one for some stitches in his finger. No ambulances were involved. While there have been incidents where the police have stopped riders and issued tickets and warnings, the assistant chief was not aware of any recent incidents where an entire peloton had been flagged down and stopped. He was not aware of any officer having pulled a cruiser into the middle of the road to create a road block either. The policy is that the same methods are used to stop cyclists as are used to stop motor vehicles, when that is necessary.

Police reports are a matter of public record. If anyone is that interested in the situation out there, just get copies of the police reports for the past couple of months, but there has not been a concerted effort to chase down these pelotons, only a case-by-case handling of individual situations.

Even the people posting about this incident have as much as admitted that they were taking up both lanes, that they were traveling at a high rate of speed, and that this is not unusual for that particular group of cyclists.

This incident occurred at a crosswalk. Crosswalks mean slow down and prepare to stop. Pedestrians have the right of way at crosswalks, even if they're wearing a uniform. This park is not set up to be a racing training route for large groups of fast moving packs of cyclists. The bicycle path is not actually a bicycle path, it's a multi-use path split between pedestrians, RECREATIONAL cyclists (not racers), and motor vehicles. There is nowhere on the road where these cyclists are riding where there is NOT pedestrian access, crosswalks, and at one point there is access to a playground.

According to the assistant chief, the vast majority of cyclists utilizing the grounds obey the rules, other than the occasional probably inadvertent infraction. It's just these large groups of racers who are consistently causing problems.

[Cataboo]

ZS, you should be a reporter... Have you interviewed the cyclists involved yet?

And I thought that investigative journalism was dead in the US.