Building Climbing Strength

[kelownagirl]

I am becoming a fairly strong rider (for my age). My strengths are speed/endurance on the flats, and short steep climbs (max 2:00 minutes, up to 1/2 km long, but best at 200-400m). I can often pass stronger men on short climbs. But my endurance on longer climbs is poor. I fizzle out pretty quickly and can't maintain the speed.

My question:

What can I do to improve in this area? I'm thinking I should gradually increase the length of my hill repeats. This past year, I was mostly doing 6-8 X 30-60 seconds of hard climbing with 1-3 minutes rest in between. The longest specific hill repeat training I did was 6X2 minutes.

Any other suggestions?

[alpinerabbit]

Yes. Start with 3x10 or 3x5 minutes at a couple gears higher than you would otherwise go up a hill, or on a spinning bike / trainer. You want to be mashing. Your pulse should be about 10 below LT, not really really high if you d o not know your LT. For me, that's 160.

Work up to 3x20.... you have all winter.... it's a one hour workout and it's one of the best tips i got in coaching.

[kelownagirl]

I guess I CAN do that on the trainer, just shift into a harder gear. Good idea. My HR tends to get to LT when I do repeats tho.

[beccaB]

Yes. Start with 3x10 or 3x5 minutes at a couple gears higher than you would otherwise go up a hill, or on a spinning bike / trainer. You want to be mashing. Your pulse should be about 10 below LT, not really really high if you d o not know your LT. For me, that's 160.

Work up to 3x20.... you have all winter.... it's a one hour workout and it's one of the best tips i got in coaching.

Is this possible for someone with sensitive knees? I have a history of runner's knee issues from all the running I used to do. It flares up from time to time. I have to be satisfied with spinning up the hills, and being slow. Is it ok to be slow? I'm getting pretty good at staying fit within the parameters of my limitations, but I don't want to hold back people I ride with.

[aicabsolut]

You're already good on the power climbs, so I'm not sure that pushing a harder gear on shorter hill repeats is going to do you much good on the long climbs. What are your "longer climbs"? If they're only 1-2 miles, then do hill repeats on those. Practice spinning, spinning, spinning until the quads burn. That will help your endurance. Then the next step is to spin up those longer climbs in larger gears. You might be able to get that next step in strength and endurance on the flats with tempo rides (a step below your time trial zone), long time-trial intervals, or hanging on for dear life in faster group rides with lots of surges. I include the latter, because that's the best way I've found to push myself far enough out of my comfort zone. Racing can also do it if you are in a fast group with a lot of surges. I have more success with the hammerhead group rides than my races (they aren't long enough really), and racing definitely isn't necessary. You just need to be able to add matches to your store and recover quickly.

One thing about the hill repeats on the longer climbs (and not the shorter ones) is that it forces you to look better at pacing yourself. Some people go way too hard at the bottom and then fizzle out. Start out with a slower pace, and you may still find you're spiking your heart rate, but that happens later, and it's just staying in that sustainable zone. Then, you're forcing your legs to keep up (hence the burn from spinning). You will start out slow, but if you work on increasing your overall strength and endurance with the longer intervals and shorter chasing intervals that nearly make you pop, then you'll be able to bring that back to the hills. So you'll have the same steady approach to the longer climb, but you'll be a cog or two harder than when you start.

From how you described your natural style now, it could take some time to build up. You may need to exaggerate spinning up (as easy of a gear as you can, at maybe 100-110rpms). That will help you build your muscular endurance. Then, enlist your natural strength and see what you can do with a harder gear and, say, 85-95 rpms. Then work on sustaining those cadences in an even harder gear (which may mean taking the 2nd gearing and going back to ultra-high cadences again).

Doing spinups is kind of how I spend a lot of the fall. Then when racing season rolls around and I work on my sprinting strength, I can apply that to hills by being able to hold a gear that requires more strength as well as I could spin a really light gear in the fall. You already have the strength part down, so take a step back and work on moving at pretty low speeds from the start of the climb but pretty high rpms to develop the slow twitch.

Does that make sense? Sorry, I feel like I was talking in circles.

[alpinerabbit]

The guy who told me to do hill repeats said very low cadence. he actually said 40 rpm but I think that is too low.

I don't know if this affects a runner's knee, I tended to feel it in places other than the ITB.

And KG, if you want to learn climbing in the real world, then there's nothing you can do but climb real, long, hills. Like 20-minute-hills. I don't know much about the place where you live but there seem to be hills, go and attack a couple... even if they beat you at first.

[aicabsolut]

Wow, that cadence is really low! When I hit a mountain that forces me into the 50rpm range, I start debating just hoofing it for a while instead of pedaling that slowly. I did discover that my maximum sustainable mountain climbing effort is 70rmps at 180bpm HR. Below that cadence, I start losing it, and I can't keep the heart rate under control. That's assuming that I've run out of gears by then, given the grade. Higher cadences on an easier grade is my preference. Plus, I think it's more effective. For example, a friend and I were tackling some mountains in WV recently, and we both have the same lowest gear. She got a head start on one of them, because she could descend a bit faster off the previous mountain. This was a relatively easy climb (in terms of grade, not length) compared to other stuff we'd hit. I zoomed past her easily less than half way up, because I was spinning about 85rpms in my easiest gear. I was baffled at why I was passing her so easily, and I look down and see she's 2-3 cogs harder than me, grinding away with a low cadence and suffering. For the really long climbs, it's just hard to use brute strength to get up them. Ideally, if we were to all practice on that terrain regularly, we'd both be able to spin fast in that harder gear. In my experience, it is harder to improve climbing endurance trying to do overgeared strength climbs than it is to work on getting your heart rate and muscles to handle spinning. I started out wanting to power up hills, because my body likes to work that way, but inevitably, I'd blow up, and I'd never get faster. It hurts like mad to work on spinning extra fast uphill, but in the long run, I think it balances out that flatland strength and power in helping the non-climber types like me learn to find some climbing legs.

That said, I agree with AR that the best way to improve on those types of climbs is to find them and climb them over and over. It is too hard to simulate it on a bunch of short hills or on the trainer, because you need to work on climbing and strength, and, at first, do the two pretty much separately.

[kelownagirl]

The guy who told me to do hill repeats said very low cadence. he actually said 40 rpm but I think that is too low.

I don't know if this affects a runner's knee, I tended to feel it in places other than the ITB.

And KG, if you want to learn climbing in the real world, then there's nothing you can do but climb real, long, hills. Like 20-minute-hills. I don't know much about the place where you live but there seem to be hills, go and attack a couple... even if they beat you at first.

Yup, lots of real hills, I do them all the time. We have everything from short steep (10 %) to long and shallow (4-5%) to rollers of varying height. That's how I know I'm slowish on them (at least compared to my husband ). I guess I'm looking for some specific workouts to do to build my strength in a systematic way so that when we go out to ride, I can attack the hills with more power.

[RoadRaven]

The guy who told me to do hill repeats said very low cadence. he actually said 40 rpm but I think that is too low.

My partner has a cadence of about 40 when he climbs; he gets in a big gear and just rolls along. He races in the top grade in our club and won gold last year at the Nationals.

I get in a low gear and have a cadence of 50-60 (until the climb gets over 12% and then I start to slow riiiiight down.

Try different things and find what works for you.
Some people in the racing/training/coaching world have become a tad obsessed with high cadence cause thats what Lance could do. But unless you had a heart / VO2max like Lance, then maybe they shouldn't recommend that people ride like Lance did in the mountains in France.

[kelownagirl]

You're already good on the power climbs, so I'm not sure that pushing a harder gear on shorter hill repeats is going to do you much good on the long climbs. What are your "longer climbs"? If they're only 1-2 miles, then do hill repeats on those. Practice spinning, spinning, spinning until the quads burn. That will help your endurance. Then the next step is to spin up those longer climbs in larger gears. You might be able to get that next step in strength and endurance on the flats with tempo rides (a step below your time trial zone), long time-trial intervals, or hanging on for dear life in faster group rides with lots of surges. I include the latter, because that's the best way I've found to push myself far enough out of my comfort zone. Racing can also do it if you are in a fast group with a lot of surges. I have more success with the hammerhead group rides than my races (they aren't long enough really), and racing definitely isn't necessary. You just need to be able to add matches to your store and recover quickly.

One thing about the hill repeats on the longer climbs (and not the shorter ones) is that it forces you to look better at pacing yourself. Some people go way too hard at the bottom and then fizzle out. Start out with a slower pace, and you may still find you're spiking your heart rate, but that happens later, and it's just staying in that sustainable zone. Then, you're forcing your legs to keep up (hence the burn from spinning). You will start out slow, but if you work on increasing your overall strength and endurance with the longer intervals and shorter chasing intervals that nearly make you pop, then you'll be able to bring that back to the hills. So you'll have the same steady approach to the longer climb, but you'll be a cog or two harder than when you start.

From how you described your natural style now, it could take some time to build up. You may need to exaggerate spinning up (as easy of a gear as you can, at maybe 100-110rpms). That will help you build your muscular endurance. Then, enlist your natural strength and see what you can do with a harder gear and, say, 85-95 rpms. Then work on sustaining those cadences in an even harder gear (which may mean taking the 2nd gearing and going back to ultra-high cadences again).

Doing spinups is kind of how I spend a lot of the fall. Then when racing season rolls around and I work on my sprinting strength, I can apply that to hills by being able to hold a gear that requires more strength as well as I could spin a really light gear in the fall. You already have the strength part down, so take a step back and work on moving at pretty low speeds from the start of the climb but pretty high rpms to develop the slow twitch.

Does that make sense? Sorry, I feel like I was talking in circles.

My longer climbs can be anywhere from 1/2 km to 4 km. We have nothing but hills here. I have a tough time keeping the RPMs high when I'm climbing though. I'll be in my granny gear by the time it hits 8% or steeper and still have to slow down to 60 rpm.

I did do spinups on the trainer last year and I generally keep my cadence in the 90-100 rpm on the flats. I am a spinner more than a masher.