Advice please: wage negotiation

[LBTC]

Hi, folks!

Well, I've been waiting awhile and I have finally received an offer for what sounds like a good job.

I'd be working for a man I've worked with before and know that we'd work well together. I'd be doing some of the same work I do now, but getting into a company that needs to redesign its processes to be ready for growth. I'll have a pivotal role in that. Quite exciting!

I've had lunch with my previous co-worker many times over the last 6 months, and have met with his partner twice. They believe I can do the job, as do I. The title is only administrative assistant, so it doesn't sound as important as I think it will be to their growing company.

The company is smaller than where I work, and the benefit plan is paid for 50/50 by company and employees. I still need to find out how much employees pay in and what the plan covers.

I'm nearly certain there is no pension plan.

Currently I have a pretty good pension plan, a fully paid benefits plan that covers a lot and I use quite a bit of it, and 4 weeks of paid vacation.

Their base salary came in 20% below my base salary. They have a profit share which will be anywhere from $500 - $5000 per year, depending on, of course, the profits.

I answered their email with:
Thank you for this interesting offer. The position sounds exciting, and your company appears to be a dynamic and challenging place to work. I believe that I can contribute a lot to the team, and to positioning the systems and processes to be ready for your future growth.

The remuneration you've indicated, even in the most optimistic calculation, is significantly lower than I receive in my current position. This is before comparing the cost and coverage of the benefit plan, pension compensation and vacation structure. I don't imagine that you intend for me to take a step backwards in my career, so would like to know when we should enter into further discussions about the compensation package.

You know that the energy that I'll bring to your team will get the job done, and that we'll work very well together. I look forward to continuing this discussion soon.

This was addressed to my former co-worker, and cc'd to his business partner, since the original offer had been sent to me that way. This evening I have heard from the business partner, with this response:

Our intent is not to have you go backwards and we are sure you would be able to help us define ourselves and the industry we compete in.

We would like to discuss further, and forgive me for being blunt but how far apart are we or where do we need to be?

Clearly we have begun a wage negotiation, but I have never done this before!!

I know that I need to start high. I know that I need to factor in benefits, pension, vacation time, base salary. I think that number falls between x and y, although I'm not sure exactly where.

Would anyone care to help me figure out a) what I should say in my email response; and b) how much I should ask for? (it seems tacky for me to post actual amounts, but I could PM them if that seems like a good idea and you want to help)

The funniest part of this request is: of everyone I know locally, the person I would ask for this advice is the guy who has offered me the job! I think that's cool in its own way.

Thanks in advance!

Hugs and butterflies,
~T~

[Wahine]

Good Luck LBTC. I stink at this sort of thing so I'll completely refrain from giving any sort of advice except to say, don't forget to weigh the "cost" of the stress at a particular workplace. Whether you're talking about your current job or the one you may be entering into.

[tc1]

Well, I have never done individual negotiating before. Or rather, I did and did it very badly. But I can tell you that in my union job, the company will hire temporary employees in the same classification, with no benefits, and pay them 20% above the permanent full time employees. Full time employees get a traditional pension plan, and very good medical benefits at a relatively small cost.

What sounds tempting in your position is to ask for a little piece of the company, shares or some other arrangement.

Women are known to be really bad at this kind of negotiation. Think of what you consider reasonable, then ask for more. That's what men do, I have been told.

[shootingstar]

Are you wanting to leave your current employer because your skills are underutilized?

Not sure about the promises of profit share. I guess I swallow that stuff always with a huge grain of salt.

I have worked for a firm where our individual bonus was contingent on work performance....based on written work goals done 12 months in advance. We (all employees plus managers) were evaluated against written job skills criteria at different advancement/complexity levels. That's fair. But then that was a large firm. It was enough stress but yes, my skill set did ramp up alot..and the firm did also provide some coverage for local and some international conference support. Also provided alot of internal structured employee training programs. Does this new firm provide this form of staff development?

What is the vacation benefit offer? That's important if the job has greater goal setting expectations.

ANd if you don't mind me asking, what industry does this job exist in? As you might know, certain industries are booming in B.C., others are struggling.

[LBTC]

Let's see:

The stresses of the new job are not really known, except that I've worked with the person who would be my boss, and he is very calm, smart and easy to work with, while still providing challenge and being strategically driven.

The stress of the current job isn't bad, but within a few months I'll have to answer to two bosses, the current boss who is very calm and easy to work with plus the crazy childish blaming mean boss I worked for already.

The industry I would be leaving is struggling in Canada, big time. The industry I would be going to is seeing a bit of a lull, but not nearly as bad as the one I'm leaving....at least not yet.

In fact it's bad enough in my industry that I never know when they'll decide to cut more jobs, and, though I think mine is safe, one never knows.

In my 12 years with the company, in 3 locations and several different positions, have been either taken advantage of, or under utilized. Currently I'm in a department that is quiet and all about numbers - and I'd rather be in a fast paced area with more interaction with people, and more presentation type stuff to work on.

I don't know how much vacation they will offer. I think I should ask for the 4 weeks I currently get, but I think I would accept 3 if the rest of the offer is good.

There is opportunity for training in this new job that is industry specific, but will still be interesting.

It's definitely a smaller company and it's been years since I've worked for one of those. In the last few years I've found the beaureucracy of the big company to be really quite a drag.

[shootingstar]

I don't know how much vacation they will offer. I think I should ask for the 4 weeks I currently get, but I think I would accept 3 if the rest of the offer is good.

There is opportunity for training in this new job that is industry specific, but will still be interesting.

It's definitely a smaller company and it's been years since I've worked for one of those. In the last few years I've found the beaureucracy of the big company to be really quite a drag.

Stick to 4 wks. vacation benefit, if your salary in end, will be 20% lower. You will THANK yourself later on. However I don't know if this job offer requires a very different skill set than present one. Oh don't tell me. There's a vague job description. Those can be killers...in the distant future..if you get real good but job spec. doesn't get upgraded and they don't know how to upgrade a job to occupational standard.

As for training, pin it down to a particular course(s) or conference on annual basis as a minimum.

Do they have a well-organized human resources dept...I mean someone who is experienced in HR, manpower planning, staff development, etc. Or is it all on favours/who knows whom?

In the end, it depends how much you want to invest/learn in your job/career and what you plan to do long-term. Do you plan to always be in Vernon?

I always looked at a job from how much new knowledge and skills I could acquire..I mean hard, demonstrable skills and knowledge. This helped me alot..and helped for the periods of overtime with no extra compensation.

[LBTC]

SS - what sort of work do you do?

In my experience, an administrative assistant always has some vagueness in the job description. But there are some specifics, and some strategic things they want my help and expertise with.

Yes, with the information I have today, I plan to retire in Vernon. That's 15-25 years away (holy!), so, obviously, things can change in that time, but we moved here with that in mind, and we haven't had any desire to change that yet.

I doubt there is much of an HR department to this company, so far. I think the VP of Operations is probably it. I'll see what I can find out about that.

I won't budge on the 4 weeks vacation unless the offer comes up 30%. The base, not counting pension and benefits, is 20% lower than I make now, so they need to come up between 25% and 30%.

One thing I'd like to know is - do I use real dollars or percentages when I come back with my counter offer? It's not quite as easy as negotiating on a house, is it?

Thanks for giving me much to think about. I appreciate it!

Hugs and butterflies,
~T~

[Blueberry]

LBTC-

I do quite a bit of negotiating in my line of work

I think you need to ask for more information from them before you come back with a counter. At a minimum, you need to know for sure on a pension, health insurance costs and vacation. Add any extra cost to what you make now. I'd start with a number 5-10% above that, but let them know you have a little room to move. I would use numbers. I would also play this as you've going to be doing more/be more critical to the company than you currently are - therefore you need to be paid more.

Good luck!!

CA

[shootingstar]

SS - what sort of work do you do?

In my experience, an administrative assistant always has some vagueness in the job description. But there are some specifics, and some strategic things they want my help and expertise with.

Yes, with the information I have today, I plan to retire in Vernon. That's 15-25 years away (holy!), so, obviously, things can change in that time, but we moved here with that in mind, and we haven't had any desire to change that yet.

I'm sorry about your grandmother's death.

In this particular job, I am a document control manager. My job requires planning, hands-on database design, taxonomy design, working with dept. heads to develop and implement project-wide best practices and quality procedures for document workflow and document/records management. Job includes developing and delivering computer-based group training regularily. Our business controls must meet specific project contractual needs for records retention. Job requires interpreting and implementing practices that meet legislative requirements at federal and provincial level.

By the end of next year, have forecasted over 100,000 different documents (electronic & originals). All of this acquired within a 3-yr. period. System is deployed for 150 employees over 6 different locations. (There are nearly 300 employed, but not all want to darken an office doorway.). Some of these locations are work trailers..out in muddy fields...I have to make site visits to all. I do manage /supervise and evaluate other staff.

In the engineering sector, document management systems are audited to met ISO QA standards. Have in the past, audited other departments, which were libraries.

My formal training and other career experience is as a librarian. You'll find us in: knowledge management, content management, document/records management, competitive intelligence....plus your so-called "libraries".

Hope you make a meaningful decision for yourself. As for the stability of a job, nothing is forever these days. Not even in govn't...one could easily be shifted somewhere else. I don't hang my hat on a company pension..but as long as the pension can be vested and is portable, if one leaves.

Forest industry in B.C. has seen some big changes in past decade. Not easy... But then the mining industry that seems to be bouncing not too badly, might fall on its nose later...as it did for quite awhile.