Weight training - useful or not?

[traveller_62]

If there are any exercise physiologists out there I'd like to know your opinion about how useful weight training is for improving cycling power. I'm also interested in the experiences of TE members in general!

I read recently that cycling is good cross training for runners because cycling requires short explosive muscle contractions that translate directly into improved running performance. The opposite, apparently, is not true. Running does not necessarily improve cycling power (might improve your aerobic fitness in general, but it doesn't appear to directly impact power/endurance on the bike).

So then I started thinking about weight lifting. I lift in the winter and then taper off when outdoor riding starts. I focus on cycling specific muscles...hamstrings, quads, calf, butt, abdominals and some limited arm/shoulder stuff. For the big leg muscles it seems to me that a traditional lifting style (lift to a count of two, lower to a count of 4) won't do that much to build the contractile efficiency and power that is important to improvements on the bike.

Carmichael Training Systems and others have suggested that plyometrics is a good way to improve cycling power because this kind of excercise promotes the recruitment of muscle fibers needed for strong contractions. My challenge is that my knees are toast from past years of Tae Kwon Do training. The impact of jumping that plyometrics requires would, I'm afraid, set me up for knee surgery rather than cycling power!

So here is my question (finally!)... If I do my squats, dead lifts, and leg presses with a "forceful" motion up rather than a slowish steady count of 2 will this recruit more of the same kind of muscle fibers that plyometrics would recruit?

I'm not talking about an accelerated lifting style that would hyperextend my knee joint....just with more force than the slow, steady lifting motion that I'm used to.

[indysteel]

Traveller, there was a "spirited" discussion of this topic a little over a year ago. Here's a link: http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showt...highlight=goat

The answer? It beats the heck out of me. Since I don't train to race, I decided to approach my non-cycling activities more holistically. As in, is this good for me irrespective of cycling? If the answer is yes, then I just leave it at that. My poor lil' brain started to overload trying to figure out the various studies!

That said, it's still a very interesting question.

[VeloVT]

eek! Just read through the old thread and it's amazing how protective people get of their opinions. (I'm sure I'm guilty of this on occasion too, of course).

I can't answer the specific question you ask.

I can say though, that I do find weight training to be helpful for both running and cycling. Many of the arguments AGAINST weight training in that thread could be plausibly made against including weights in training for endurance running, and yet in my experience it really helps my running, and I'm doing strictly distance running. I find that when I lift consistently, I can tackle fairly steep hills without breaking pace much -- that extra power is as important as aerobic fitness. Or perhaps more clearly, muscular power is as much of a limiting factor as aerobic fitness, at least for me when I'm trying to run up hills . (The lifting I do, when I do it, focuses on power rather than endurance, so few reps + heavy weights, but I haven't experimented with "explosive" lifts so I can't comment on that, although it makes intuitive sense to me).

I think the same applies to cycling. Of course this is a great oversimplification of "training metrics", and I'm not claiming a preponderance of scientific evidence backs this view (although I don't think there is a preponderance against it either). I'm just sharing my personal experience.

Good luck!

Oh just one more thing -- I would want to take an "explosive" program really slow at first, to make sure all of the supporting/stabilizing muscles were conditioned and up to the task before putting a lot of new kinds of forces on them.

[OakLeaf]

I'm not an exercise physiologist either - but as a group fitness instructor, I don't think I would advise anyone to attempt that type of workout without direct coaching. I think it can be done safely, but not based on text advice over the Internet. There's a huge chance of injury. You might want to look into kettlebells (also with direct coaching).

PS when I returned to cycling three years ago after a 10 year absence, I am positive that the strength training I'd been doing is what allowed me to jump in and hang with some moderately advanced riders. My terrain is similar to Indy's - the hills aren't high, but for that very reason the engineers don't bother to put a grade on them - trucks can climb them without burning out their engines. As for cyclists, it sometimes takes all my strength to turn over the pedals, and no one can convince me that super-slow 220-lb leg presses don't help with that.

[traveller_62]

Indysteel,
thanks for the pointer to the previous post. There was a reference in that thread that led me to a Master's thesis entitled "Ballistic Training: The Effectiveness of Maximal Power Training on Physical Performance" that has some interesting stuff in it. It doesn't answer my question exactly but it was still interesting. One of the conclusions of the research relative to cycling was that for maximum benefit of ballistic training as a means to improve cycling there needs to be a period of strength training prior to the ballistic (power training) phase....which leads to a thanks to....

Liza..because your point about needing to first strengthen connective tissue and stablizing muscles before lifting heavier weights or moving into some kind of power training is often overlooked. I completely agree with you that performing any kind of "ballistic" movement right off the bat is a recipe for disaster.

OakLeaf you also bring up a good point about getting coaching from an experienced trainer before doing stuff like this.

I'm still really interested in finding out more about the specific physiological responses to ballistic training (in terms of the types of muscle fibers that are recruited) so my search continues.....unfortunately I'm finding most exercies physiology studies are done with young folks (20 somethings) and probably the response in middle age people like myself will be different.

[VeloVT]

I have a good book on plyometrics called "High Powered Plyometrics" by James Radcliffe and Robert Farentinos. (Sounds a little obscure but should be available at your local Borders or Barnes & Noble). In addition to pictures and descriptions of various exercises and exercise progressions, there are detailed sections on the "science" behind plyometrics and how one should approach periodization, etc. I bought it because I saw it recommended in a number of running books by seemingly reputable folks (Alberto Salazar, etc). I know you're not looking specifically at plyometrics, but it might be worth a look for background info.

I read somewhere that in the Soviet Union, when plyometrics were first being used in a systematic way, athletes weren't permitted to start plyometric training until they could squat 1.5 times body weight (which I always interpreted to mean that a 120lb woman would need to squat with a bar loaded with 180 lbs). I don't think this guideline is followed anymore, but it does suggest that one should not underestimate the stress plyometrics can put on the body.

[Zen]

... is this good for me irrespective of cycling? If the answer is yes, then I just leave it at that.

Having said that, I still stand by what I say every time this discussion comes up. If you want to get fit for cycling, you ride a bike.

I'm with youse guise.
enjoy the ride.

[VeloVT]

Wahine, that must have been a different spirited thread on this subject -- I don't think you're quoted in the one linked to here.

This discussion is entirely too civil . No one has yet resorted to citing 20 different journal articles at the end of their post to prove for once and for all that they are right and everyone else is stupid.

(Thank goodness ...).

[RoadRaven]

I wouldn't have the TIIMME to find 20 articles

[crazycanuck]

I really only started doing the physio recommended & pilates exercises with small weights after my recent injury. I actually enjoy it.

I need to re-strengthen my hamstrings & glutes in order to power down on my right leg which i can't do yet.. I know time on the trainer helps & do that too..

It seems to be working out just fine but with everyting, it takes time. Once I can power down i will def continue doing exercises with weights.

[traveller_62]

Thanks to everyone for the comments, suggestions and insights on the topic of the utility of weight lifting for cycling.

I agree, in general, with the philosophy that the best way to improve any aspect of cycling is to get on the bike and train the skill you want to improve (in my case, climbing faster). But I live in the ice/snow belt in Maine so there are many months where I need to focus on other kinds of training to keep my form and get ready for cycling season.

Last year I spent a lot of time in the gym doig weight lifting and didn't see that much improvement in my climbing ability (as measured by my ability to keep up with my cycling partner on the hills). That, in part, is what prompted me to post my question to this forum.

This year I'm still lifting this winter but I'm spending more time on core (abdominals) work and on flexibility (Hatha yoga). I'm also spending a lot of cross training time on XC skiis --which I do think will help keep up my cycling specific fitness over the winter. (Trainer workouts with my bike are fine but I like being outside better!)

Given all the input here I'll do some more research on how best to translate weight lifting into cycling specfic fitness/power. If I find anything interesting I'll post it to the forum. In the end I suspect I'll be incorporating some plyometrics into my training --- I'll at least try it out and see how my knees hold up. I hadn't heard of Crossfit training so I'll check that out as well.

And once spring has arrived I'll forget all about it and just enjoy being on my bike again

- Carol