Sodium Phosphate

[RoadRaven]

Do any of you use this?

It is recommended in Joe Friel's Training Bible...

My partner and I have both "tested" it this last week to make sure it doesn't upset our stomachs. We both seem fine.

We are going to try loading with it - the 3 day regimen (4 grams per day) in a week and a half just prior to a TT race in a couple of weeks.

It is meant to help the haemoglobin release oxygen in the muscle, which effectively means that the muscles are able to operate at aerobically at higher speeds and power outputs than usual.

Some studies have shown that it effectively raises the lactate threshold by up to 10%. The gains from Sodium Phosphate loading are supposedly still there after a week.

What do you think?
Do any of you use it?
Is it effective or just a placebo?
And to the purists out there... is this bordering on drug cheating?

[Squirrel 2]

are you sure you want to do this?

http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/safety/sodiumphospate.htm

[Bikingmomof3]

I consulted my husband, who is a chemist, and in his non-medical opinion did not think taking sodium phosphate for this purpose was a good idea. Check with a doctor or pharmacist.

[KnottedYet]

Is there something else you could do instead? A little extra sleep, a massage or two?

Messing with the acid/base chemistry of your blood isn't going to help functional oxy much. Remember, if the hemoglobin is releasing oxy easily, it's equally poorly transporting oxygen. Like taking the shoelaces out of your shoes because it's so much easier to get them on and off then, but can you run well without shoelaces holding your shoes on?

I have a fabulous host of neurological problems because my body screws up the acid-base balance of my blood all by itself. The thought that it takes a week or more for you to recover after dosing yourself with sodium phosphate is quite chilling.

Trust me, you don't want what I've got. And yes, I think that could be considered cheating if it actually worked. And dangerous either way.

[alpinerabbit]

Why would you want to take additional sodium and phosphate?

your diet probably contains enough sodium and phosphate and from a biochemical point of view, these are not required in the release of oxygen in the muscles. Can you provide a link to said study?

Loading with a water soluble salt makes very little sense, as you will just excrete any excess.

[RoadRaven]

Thanks for your concern ladies.

I am not too worried about it, as Friel recommends it as one of the "best kept secrets in cycling". In the same chapter he talks about other legal performance enhancers like caffiene (which many of us here at TE use). Every other bit of advice and observation of Friel's I (and other friends who have his books) have followed has been useful, sound and improved my fitness - both physical and mental.

It is legal Knotted, but I was interested to see how many might think of it as cheating - for me the lines are thin. I use caffiene in races - I take it an hour before I will need it, as it is most effective an hour after being consumed. Is this different? I dont know. Its a performance enhancer and not naturally found in the body... should it be disallowed?

Like creatine, found naturally, can be consumed naturally or over the counter? Is it bordering that thin line? You can eat huge quantities of red meat to load with it, or take it as a more convenient powder - the perception out there is that it "builds muscle" but many studies show that used judiciously it helps with recovery... a close friend has been using that as a powder and has found his muscles feel better and recover more quickly.

I hear your concerns Knotted, and I am listening. I have followed how health impacts on several women here (including you). I appreciate your concerns.

Alpine... Friel cites several studies in his little blurb about it. The link of Squirrel's is 5 years old - maybe I need to find some more specific recent studies - that link is about use for constipation, not sporting related.

I will take your words under advisement and keep researching til next weeks "D-Day".

I would be interested in any other opinions, links, critiques.

If you don't wanna talk about it in public, please PM me.

I am still considering doing this unless I can find compelling evidence to stay away. You gals seem to collectively see everything there is and I value your input and opinions.

Thanks again for your responses thus far.

~R~

[RoadRaven]

Reference: Friel, J. (2003). The cyclist’s training bible (3rd ed). Boulder, Colarado: Velopress (p.220-221)

(Chapter 16 “Fuel” – also found in Chpter 16; Protein, carbohydrates, fat, water, antioxidant supplements, ergogenic aids, branched-chain amino acids, medium-chain triglycerides, creatine, caffiene, glycerol)

The German Army used sodium phosphate in WWI, and even in the 1930s German atheletes knew of its worth. It has not received a great deal of publicity in recent years, though some atheletes have known about it for years but kept the secret.

Sodium phosphate has the potential to improve a 40k time trial significantly, alloq you to hang on when the pace would normally have you off the back and make high-intensity efforts feel much easier.

In 1983, researchers working with elite runners found that sodium phosphate increased aeobic capacity by 9 percent and improved ventalattory threshold (like lactate threshold) by 12 percent. A more recent study of cyclists in Florida showed showed that using phosphate improved low-level endurance times significantly, lowered 40k time trial times by 8 percent, and raised lactate threshold by 10 percent, while lowering perceived effort. These results seem a bit extreme, but there is limited research on sodium phosphate.

It appears to produce benefits by causing the hemoglobin in the red blood cells to completely unload their stores of oxygen at the muscle. A greater supply of oxygen allows the muscles to operate aerobically at higher speeds and power outputs that would normally cause an anaerobic state.

The next/last three paragraphs in this section are about how to load with it, possible symptoms if your body does not like it and warnings to try it out well before you need it.

References at the end of the chapter that appear to support this section:

Altering cardiorespiatory fitness. (1986). Sports Medicine 3, no.5, p. 346-356

Anderson, O. (1996) Carbs, creatine and phosphate: If the king had used these uppers he’d still be around today. Running Research News 12, no.3, p.1-4

Cade, R. (1984). Effects of phosphate loading on 2,3-diphosphoglycerate and maximal oxygen uptake. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 16, no.3, p.263-268

Kreider, R.B. (1990). Effects of phosphate loading on oxygen uptake, ventilatory anaerobic threshold, and run performance. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 22, no.2, p.250-256

Kreider, R.B. (1992). Effects of phosphate loading on metabolic and myocardial responses to maximal and endurance exercise. International Journal of Sports Nutrition 2, no.1, p.20-47

Stewart, I. (1990). Phosphate loading and the effects on VO2max in trained cyclists. Research Quarterly for Exercise and Sport 61, no.1, p.80-84

[RoadRaven]

Well... I don't think I'll bother again... it didn't seem to make a huge difference. I think a caffiene drink half and hour before the start of the race has more impact on my system... it was an interesting experiment.

I think it made the race easier to get through but I don't think it increased my performance in terms of time. I did a PB, but I was expecting to anyways...

It was interesting to be your guineapig, ladies... but my money is better spent elsewhere than these tabs.

[RoadRaven]

Just going to resurrect this...

I have increased my performance after a long plateau.
I was given a bunch of vitimins etc from a family friend who was clearing out her cupboard and having tossed about half of them due to being past use-by date or just not looking "fresh" so moisture must have got in...

However, several bottles/jars of bits and pieces - one of which a complete unopened jar (80tabs) of Sodium Phosphate.

So I figure - why not? I have a good idea of where I am at, will be time-trialling a course this coming Thursday that I raced only 4 weeks previously.

As I have said earlier in this thread, it is legal, these are naturally occuring minerals in the body - caffiene isn't and yet it is also legal...

Although this student research was highlighted in another forum
http://www.uvm.edu/~uvmhpl/research.html#KM

... and states "Repeated measures analysis of variance (P< 0.05) indicated no significant effects of sodium phosphate supplementation in contrast to the placebo treatment for VO2max or blood lactate. In conclusion, our data suggest that NaPO4 is an ineffective supplement when used to enhance endurance performance."
... I am still going to give this a go.

So, the race is Thursday, this means I take some low doses on Sunday and Monday, and then load Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and race Thursday evening...

I am interested to know if anyone else here has tried this out yet. Even a PM if you don't want to disclose in this thread...

And I am still interested in your opinions about this - either way - whether you are interested/enthusiastic or whether you think this borders on/is cheating...

Everything welcome, I will not take offence

[RoadRaven]

In addition to my above post...

This was posted at RoadBikeReview by Zoikz in 2006...

One of the central limitations of sports medicine research is generally these studies are done on very small samples. Because of this they have very little power, ie. their conclusions are really not statistically significant. When you look at any given topic there are multiple small studies with differing conclusions. Sodium phosphate is typical, there are studies on either side; benefit, no benefit.
To be fair these studies are generally poorly funded and technically difficult to perform. It would be very, very difficult to conduct the large placebo based randomized trials everyone in medicine loves.
One word of warning though, look at who funds these different projects. Often these research studies are conducted by researchers or labs with a vested intereest in the product they are assessing. Accelerade is certainly a good example of bad science conducted by biased researchers.
My take on phosphate is it probably won't hurt so give it a shot if you want. Doubt it does much of anything though.