Intersection navigation questions

[Grits]

I ride with a few friends, and we are having a difference of opinion about how to go through an intersection that is on one of our rides.

The intersection has one lane going straight through in each direction plus a turn lane on each side of the lane. It is on a hill, and there are often several cars waiting for the light to turn. My friends do not like stopping on the hill, so they go inbetween the cars in the lane going straight and the right turn lane, so they are sometimes fitting themselves inbetween two lanes of cars until they get to the front where there is space for them. I just can't bring myself to do that and get in line behind the cars. Of course, then I am slow getting started on the hill, but I stay to the right side of the lane and cars can get around me pretty well - or not, but I still don't see that there is any other way to do it.

I have always said that we are supposed to behave like a car and follow the same rules the cars do, and they agree, but then do the same thing next time. Input please. There is no way to avoid this intersection on this ride.

And, while I am at it.... How about a large, very busy highway with a grassy median between 2 lanes on each side. At the place where we cross, there is an unmarked paved turning area between the lanes for u-turns and turns onto access roads on each side of the highway. We usually have to go halfway across the highway and wait in the unmarked paved turning area until traffic allows us to cross the rest of the way. Where should we wait in that halfway area? I would rather wait all the way to the far right so that cars have plenty of room to turn in the rest of the area.

Most of our ride is low traffic, but these two places can be tricky.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Grits,
It's a little hard to envision your second intersection description, but perhaps you will find some helpful information on one of these pages:
http://bicyclesafe.com/
http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/usa/chapter3a.htm

You should do whatever it takes to stay safe when negotiating intersections. It sounds to me like your friends have put convenience ahead of safety. They should NOT be riding between two lanes of traffic in order to move ahead of the cars at an intersection, hill or no hill. Eventually some car will suddenly decide to change lanes and will turn right into them because the driver was not expecting a bike to be riding where there was no lane. It won't much matter who had the right of way, but you know who will be the more injured between car driver and bike rider.

Stick to your guns and stay safe.

I always act just like a car as I move through an intersection. After passing through safely, I return back to my regular 'bike position' on the right side of whatever lane I'm riding in and allow cars to pass me freely.

[OakLeaf]

It really depends on the intersection whether I'll filter to the front or take the lane. How much of a shoulder is there? How much is there on the other side of the intersection? How busy is the cross street - what's the likelihood that many of the cars will be either turning right, or looking to their left as they cross? Do any of the cars have turn signals on, and if so, where are they in line? (I know not to rely on turn signals - one way or the other - but it's one of many clues I use.) How much visibility is there all around? Is #1 in line back from the intersection, in the crosswalk, or somewhere in between? What's the speed limit and the ambient speed? What are the light conditions? What's the mood of traffic I've observed approaching the intersection?

With a longer light you have the option of filtering as far as is possible or safe, all or part of the way to the light, and then taking the lane in front of a stopped car. (Motorcycles do it all the time.)

While you may put yourself in danger of a right hook if you don't wait behind all the cars, you may put yourself in danger of being rear ended if you do. (Even if you wait behind all the cars, some of them will then pass you before the intersection, and any one of them may right hook you.) In daylight, you're almost always more visible from the side than from the rear if you pull into the driver's field of view, turn around and look at them, don't get too close to their car (which is why the width of the shoulder matters).

Negotiating traffic is always a matter of making hundreds of judgments every minute. FWIW I don't think a bicyclist who plans to go straight should EVER get in a right-turn lane for ONE SECOND, even if it means riding to the left of a considerable amount of traffic. Getting into that right hand turning lane is a sure way of getting right-hooked, IMO.

[Crankin]

Lisa, you know I am the safest and not particularly aggressive rider around. But, I can envision the first intersection she described because I had a similar situation on my commute to work. No as many turning points, but it kept me from trying the commute for a year because i was scared, even at 6:30 in the morning.
This was an uphill (not really a huge hill) that ended in a T with a busier street. There is a light there. There is a right turn lane for the cars going right, but you cannot make a right on red. I had to turn left here. I would ride up the very right side of the left turn lane, sort of on the line. It was better visibility here and frankly, easier to get started. I have had some really bad experiences trying to start off on little uphills, and having to end up scooting through intersections, pushing with my unclipped foot. So, I was in between the lanes of cars, when usually I always get in the lane and act like a car. If I hadn't done this and ended up behind a car in the left lane, I am almost certain I would not have bee able to start up again. I once fell in the middle of an intersection in a situation like this and I felt safer being between the cars. There was enough room and I know that cars saw me. Maybe because no one was going straight here, it's a different story, but I can see why someone would do what was described.

[Mr. Bloom]

Take the rightmost lane that serves your destination. Your position within the lane may depend on a number of factors, but should never be between the cars.

Being between the cars makes your friends potentially invisible to the drivers and prone to danger.

[OakLeaf]

But, if you're going straight and there's a right turn lane and the light is green, you're between cars. Maybe you take the lane in the intersection itself, but for the length of the lane approaching it (which could be an entire city block), you're in your normal position.

Likewise if you're turning left from a left turn lane. Even more so if there are two left turning lanes (which would mean that even if you take the lane the entire way, there will STILL be traffic on your left in the other lane).

Yes it's scary having cars passing you on both sides, but I think that there's taking the lane, and then there's just plain holding up traffic, and IMO the latter is just inviting road rage.

[Mr. Bloom]

Sorry, I misunderstood thinking that "between the cars" was between two cars in adjacent lanes.