Carbon vs. Ti for racing//Advice on choosing a versatile bike

[Katiebikes]

Hi all--

I posted a few days ago in the "bikes" section about buying a Lynskey, but received no responses, so I've generalized my question and am reposting here. Apologies if you're tired of me and my questions already!

I'm starting to get into racing (road racing, crits, some time trials), and am looking into purchasing a new bike. I also like to ride long (50+ miles) so I want a bike that's good for long distances. I was starting to get interested in buying a titanium bike (a Lynskey, to be exact), but my bike shop steered me away from it...saying that carbon was better for racing: snappier, accelerates better, etc. I'm 5'3 and 125 lbs, so I can't imagine the "stiffness" of the bike is going to differ much from bike to bike for a lightweight like me, but I could be wrong.

Does anyone out there have any experience racing on titanium? Are there benefits of carbon over ti? Do any of you ride a carbon bike with race geometry (shorter head tube, slightly longer top tube) that's also comfortable for longer rides?

Here are the bikes I'm looking at:
Lynskey R340, XS
Orbea Onix Dama OR Diva, 49
Cannondale SuperSix 2, 48
Specialized Amira Expert, 48

If anyone out there rides/races these bikes, I'd really appreciate your input!

[Veronica]

It's not on your list - but I've done several 60ish mile rides on my Cervelo S. It's very comfortable. It's so light and climbs so well that I tend to choose it over my steel bike, even thought it's suppose to be my "race" bike.

Veronica

[Eden]

I'm 5'0" 105 and I can feel the difference between a stiff bike and one that is compliant... my old alu bike was slooooooooooow to accelerate once I knew what I was looking for I swear I could feel the energy going into flexing that bottom bracket... It was quite a difference between that and my carbon bike. That said, geometry and construction have as much to do with feel as materials.

I know someone who sold a Ti bike because it was too stiff for her liking and I've known people who've had carbon bikes with no snap. Steel can be a smooth and cushy cadillac ride or can be turned into a swift racer.

P.S. - Ti isn't necessarily a forever frame... I have a teammate (who is not big - not much bigger than me) who has totaled not one but two Ti frames...

[SheFly]

I race on a carbon frame with carbon wheels and LOVE it. Handles perfectly, climbs better than I do, and corners well also. It's great for racing road races and crits, and I've done some long rides (100 miles) on it as well. I had a titanium bike at one point (that I did NOT use for racing), but it was not as nice of a ride as the carbon is for me.

Like Eden, I went from an aluminum to a carbon frame, and I swear I will never race anything else now.

FWIW - I have two carbon road bikes, a carbon TT bike, and two carbon cyclocross bikes.

I also think, however, that your experience will depend a lot on other factors as well, including geometry and fit, as Eden has pointed out.

SheFly

[Seajay]

It seems a little silly to me that someone would say a Ti bike is not as good for racing. That's a big generalization.
OK, so the best of the best race bikes happen to be Carbon right now. That doesn't mean every black plastic bike is a good one.
If you get a high quality bike that fits you perfectly and you love the way it rides...Alum, Ti or Carbon are all nice at the high end.

Invest in the best wheelset you can afford. If it's in the budget,Zipp 303 would fill all your needs and be blazing fast for TT, ROAD, CRIT and Distance. Maybe road race with 23mm tires, bumpy crits and Distance rides on 25s.

p.s. make sure all your test rides are on the same size tires at the same pressure.

[SheFly]

It seems a little silly to me that someone would say a Ti bike is not as good for racing. That's a big generalization.

I don't think we are saying that Ti isn't as good as carbon. I think we are saying that the feel of Ti is DIFFERENT from carbon. I have ridden both, and for me, this is true. I PREFER a carbon frame, but that doen't make it better.

I know people who have Ti bikes, race on them, and LOVE the way they feel. For me, this wasn't the case, and I could tell a difference in the handling of the bike, based on the frame material (and I know this because all of my parts get swapped from one frame to another, so that is all equal).

I think the OP needs to try both and see what feels most comfortable to her. Eden and I have both said that the fit is really the most important element, regardless of frame material chosen.

SheFly

[Katiebikes]

Thank you all for the answers! I really appreciate it. After talking to so many men in bike shops about this stuff, it's really nice to hear the opinions of other women.

I understand that fit is the foremost concern, so got fitted by one of the best shops in town (the owner's daughter rides pro, and he fit me) and have a good idea of the size I need: 50.5-51.5cm top tube, <46cm seat tube, 10-11cm head tube. So far I've ridden aluminum and steel, and really preferred steel. However, I think that is largely due to the fact that the steel bike was a much nicer bike than the alu one--I think most peoples' experience with alu was with their first, entry level bike, so it's a hard comparison to make. From what I hear and have read, aluminum is actually stiffer than carbon, but harsher as well. I'm not really considering alu for my road bike, maybe a TT bike, but that won't be for a little while...

Having never really rode carbon or titanium, it's difficult for me to get a feel for what each is like in the brief (4-5 mile) test ride I take from my shop. I'm going to try Ti today, so I'll let y'all know how it goes. I tried carbon last week, and, while it felt pretty good, I was mostly distracted by the whirring sound of the drive train through the frame. Has anyone else noticed this? It was so much louder than my steel bike!

Durability is also a concern. I realize you can wreck a Ti bike, but carbon just seem so much more fragile... Has anyone ever crashed a carbon bike? Did you ride it afterward?

[SheFly]

Durability is also a concern. I realize you can wreck a Ti bike, but carbon just seem so much more fragile... Has anyone ever crashed a carbon bike? Did you ride it afterward?

We have a team member who crashed her carbon frame earlier this year and had it repaired. The bike is solid, and she has raced it HARD since including traveling to some NRC races. It hink (although I may be wrong) that carbon is easier to repair than some of the other frame materials.

That said, if you crash a Ti frame, you are just as likely to do damage.

Carbon is definitely more tempermental, and scratches much easier. I have managed to ding my top tube on my cross bikes just by draggin my shoe over the top... With a Ti bike, small scratches buff right out with steel wool! And carbon can also certainly break with just a SLIGHT impact...

Whatever you decide, I'm sure you will have a terrific ride!

SheFly

[Pedal Wench]

Durability is also a concern. I realize you can wreck a Ti bike, but carbon just seem so much more fragile... Has anyone ever crashed a carbon bike? Did you ride it afterward?

I have carbon and Ti bikes, and like the ride of each for different reasons. One of my Ti bikes is real stiff because it was designed for heavier riders. The other bike is part Ti, part carbon, but the BB is Ti, so it's not ultra stiff.

I just discovered a crack in my carbon handlebars on a bike that's never crashed. I'm so glad it was discovered in the LBS and not on a speedy descent. The shop guy just applied a bit of pressure and it was in two pieces.

[smilingcat]

The ride quality and its handling has much more to do with the geometry of the bike. And with the advent of hydroforming of tubes where the cross sectional area of the tube changes and the diameter changes along the length of tube, the bike feel can be tailor made.

Steel: very good work horse can be made very light, very strong. Old fashioned but very good. Can rust over years of use. Check Luna bike with Margo. She makes custom steel and very good. (alternative to Lynsky and Ti)

Aluminum: To make aluminum frame stiffer, builders used oversized oval to make it stiffer. But the builders didn't compensate the diameter of the tube for the smaller riders, the complaint were "TOO STIFF", "IT BUZZES" for those with smaller frame. Hopefully they have learned a few things and fixed their build. Aluminum will also work harden over long hard use and will wear out. A regional racer might take 5 or so seasons to work harden an aluminum frame. That's just my guess with no data to back it up. When the metal becomes work hardened, it becomes stiffer and more brittle. more likely to have stress fractures.

Carbon: Doesn't rust, stiffness of bike can be readily designed in to be either very stiff are compliant. It will crack instead of dented when crashed. But then again if the frame is dented and out of true, the frame is lost cause.

Ti: Also doesn't rust. Some of the Ti frames have cracked. builders went to too much of an extreme and resultant bikes, though were extremely light, ended up not being very durable. For a while there were two different alloys available. First one was Ti2.5V alloy. The second one was I think Ti4.5V. The second one was much stiffer but it was also very brittle and the frames made from it cracked. My Litespeed was made with Ti2.5V alloy and its handling remained the same over 7 or 8 years of use. It was smooth, comfortable and great for road race but not so good as a crit bike. But this is because of its geometry and nothing to do with the material.

For crits, you want a bike that is very stiff to give you the necessary "explosive" acceleration and bit squirrly handling for better cornering ability. It's not for distance riding.

For road/classics, you want a bike that is bit relaxed so that your tooth filling doesn't shake loose and bit more relaxed geometry so that you don't mentally tire out over the long ride.

Best offer I can give you is get a bike that you feel comfortable riding and get a descent fit. Material is of personal preference. That's just my take after years of riding on steel, and Ti. Currently have Aluminum frame Specialized transition pro, very light, very stiff, not good for road race. Have carbon/aluminum entry level race bike. Good for road but terrible for crit. And on my trainer is a old fashioned steel double butted tubed bike.

Go for the bike you like looks wise paint scheme etc. And the feel of the ride.

[Eden]

I have crashed several times on my carbon bike with no damage to the bike (once into a car who turned in front of me.....)

[Miranda]

Here is my road bike that I love

http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showt...ht=candy+sweet


Here is where I crashed my bike I love

http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showt...=century+crash


The bike in that crash ended up getting new bars and stem, which were made of aluminum and got bent; plus wheel trueing... but carbon frame and cages perfect shape.

My first roadie was alum... felt like a tuning fork to ride on chip and seal... ouch. The carbon roadie just sucks that right up. Versus your body. I also have a carbon bar now, and that does help a little more too.

The Orbea Onix is about one pound heavier than the Diva in the frameset... and about $1K less for that reason. If you are buying... do it now... in 2011 Orbea is making some changes to their lines... believe there is no more Diva... just the Onix.

Good luck in your search.

[suzbyrd]

I just bought a brand new Trek Madone 5.1 carbon frame road bike. I had been riding an aluminum frame Giant OCR3. There is absolutely no comparison between the two. The Trek is so much more "quiet". It doesn't bend when I climb. Most road vibrations don't extend up through the handlebars to the upper body. It was amazing moving from a low end road bike to something like the Trek. I feel like I am 100% a better rider from purchasing this new bike. BTW...I also purchased the top line pedals and shoes. This makes a huge difference in performance. I am now wondering why I waited so long to make ths purchase. The difference is extraordinary!

[smilingcat]

I'm sorry but I didn't mean to impune that a carbon frame will break/shatter at first crash. Or more prone to breakage than any other material. Other material are not immune to breakage.

Steel can bend, crack, break. Seen it happen on Bianchi and on my bike.

Aluminum seen it bent out of shape after a crash.

Ti frame seen the down tube crack into two pieces.

Given strong enough impact, all material will fail. Best advice is pick a bikt that fits and is comfortable for you.