Brook B17 Imperial -- Can it be softer later?

[wildeny]

I started to try Brook B17 Imperial (men's edition) saddle and hoped that this would be better for my long distance cycling (1200k).

When I got it, I immediately noticed the problem of its design (later). Anyway, I finally got it installed and tried it few times on the roller. Geeze, it's so hard! The most uncomfortable part is on the cut-out, where the edge is hard and not pliable (especially the front cut-out). I have started to think that maybe I should try the B17 without the cut-out.

The owners of B17 Imperial, can you tell me whether the hardness on the edge would be softer when I ride more often? I had applied the proofide several times but it's still very hard. (BTW, which side is the finished side of leather? ) I will appreciate your comments.

Now back to the design problem mentioned above. The short rails on this saddle doesn't not fit well for shorter rider with a small bike frame. I'm 5'2.5" and the seat tube angle of my bike is 75 deg, so with regular setback seat tube (20mm) the saddle's position is still too forward for me. I then found that many people complained about this (I never thought of this). In order to try this saddle, I had to buy a new seat post with farther setback (30mm). I'd say this is poor design from Brooks.

Side-by-side view. almost 1cm difference.

[KnottedYet]

Well, the design is over 100 years old, from the days when the bike geometry gave you more set back and the seat clamp was a completely different animal.

The finished side of the full thickness leather is the side with the nice smooth finish - the top side. (hair side on the steer)
The unfinished side of the leather is the side that is rough with no nice smooth finish - the bottom side. (meat side on the steer)

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Now you know why I recommend against the Brooks shorter-railed "S" models- they are even shorter than the men's versions!

Are you wearing your normal chamois when you experience this? Is it just an 'odd new feeling' or is it actually uncomfortable?

Do you feel you really need a cut-out? When the saddle is harder, like a Brooks, it holds your sitbones up better so you don't sink into the saddle as much as with padded saddles. This might mean you don't need a cutout as much. Something to think about.

Brooks' leather is hard so that it will slowly form to your sitbones over time. It won't ever get 'soft' and that's intentional. You might want to either try a B17 without the cutout, or try a Selle Anatomica which has thinner leather with a cutout and acts more like a hammock.

[wildeny]

Thanks, KnottedYet:

Now I know I should apply the proofide on the top side. (I applied on both side :P).

Now you know why I recommend against the Brooks shorter-railed "S" models- they are even shorter than the men's versions!.

Good advice!

Are you wearing your normal chamois when you experience this? Is it just an 'odd new feeling' or is it actually uncomfortable?

Do you feel you really need a cut-out? When the saddle is harder, like a Brooks, it holds your sitbones up better so you don't sink into the saddle as much as with padded saddles. This might mean you don't need a cutout as much. Something to think about.

Brooks' leather is hard so that it will slowly form to your sitbones over time. It won't ever get 'soft' and that's intentional. You might want to either try a B17 without the cutout, or try a Selle Anatomica which has thinner leather with a cutout and acts more like a hammock.

The one I wore on the roller is a little bit on the thin side (old short) but it's all right when I use my original saddle -- Specialized Romin SL.

I do need a cut-out. I like this Romin SL very mucht. Right now, by looking at the profile of the saddle, I think the Broooks one is still not close to Romin.

However, my main problem is not because the hardness on the back of the saddle but the edge of cut-out. It's so uncomfortable that even though I still feel it from the one-hour exercise last night.

If the Brooks' leather doesn't get soft ever, then ...

I will adjust the angle to see whether it can easy the discomfort a little bit.

[Biciclista]

I can't figure out why the cut out is bugging you so much. I have one on my B68 imperial too. Perhaps you need to tilt the nose UP? put your weight on your sit bones?

[wildeny]

Ya, that's what I'm going to try next: tilt the nose up a little bit.
But, do you feel the edge of cut-out on your B68 Imperial when you sit on it?

[Biciclista]

I can barely feel it. I did a 68 mile ride saturday and on a short incline i crunched a little and felt it, but it was a minor discomfort that faded.
it sounds like you have too much pressure on the front. and bummer about the short rails!

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

We should also keep in mind that some of us have more or less soft tissue mass in the 'cutout area' than others. This can definitely increase or decrease the pressure felt on our soft tissues. We are all shaped differently.

[wildrover]

Hi, sorry I haven't posted before, but I have read ALL the posts on the Brooks, and since Christmas, I've gone through a Team Pro S, a Flyer, a B67, and I'm finally able to 'comfortably' ride a B68 Imperial. Quotes intended.

The B67 and the B68 have a pebbled leather, and it is definitely softer. I didn't try another B17 in the Imperial version (the Flyer is a B17 with springs), because I knew I would be sitting over the metal. My husband's B17 saddles are stiffer leather as well.

There is a forum where Brooks had a bunch of guys test the Imperial. Try this for suggestions. I think one of the guys sanded the cutout, and there were some comments about the laces:

I think this is one:

http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/in.../t-408695.html

I'll see if I can't find the other reviews.

[soprano]

Have you tried adjusting the laces? When the lacing on my Imperial is loose, the cut-out pinches shut under my weight and is painful. When the laces are tight enough I don't feel the cut-out at all.

I had to adjust the laces several times as the saddle broke in, starting around the 500 mile mark. I've had it for almost a year now (so maybe 5000 miles?) and haven't touched the laces in a while. They're pretty tight, enough so that the bottom flaps curve in a bit under the tension. The nose is tilted up pretty high, otherwise, I slide forward and put too much weight on my hands.

I don't think that you're supposed to use a ton of Proofide. Think of it as waterproofing, rather than as a softening agent. That little tin is supposed to last several years. Use too much, and you'll have black dye from the saddle coming off on your pants

These saddles are notorious for not having a lot of setback.

[KnottedYet]

Brooks and other suspended leather saddles need to be leveled at the nose, not across the saddle as a whole.

When looked at from the side, the cantle plate should be slightly higher than the tip of the nose. The nose itself will be level its entire length.

If a suspended leather saddle is leveled across the saddle as a whole (cantle plate and tip of nose the same height viewed from the side), when you sit on it and the leather gives under you, the nose is essentially too high.

Then it will feel like the nose is digging into you, especially at the front.

[wildrover]

I can't figure out why the cut out is bugging you so much. I have one on my B68 imperial too.

Since Christmas, I've gone thru (i.e. 'tested') a Team Pro S, a Flyer, a B67 and have finally 'settled' on a B68 Imperial. Of the 4 of these, and the 2 B17 saddles my husband has, the pebbled leather on the B67 and the B68 is definitely softer.

Thanks your experiences with the lacing Soprano, I was wondering what to expect! When Brooks came out with this saddle again a few years ago, they sent out a bunch of saddles for riders to test and review. I wish I could find that forum again, now that I own one of these, and the lacing often came up in the reviews. Does anyone remember where it is?

Regarding angle of saddle: I've been tilting the nose of the saddle up as well. I think it is because I'm a heavier rider, on a softer leather saddle. I don't like to have that much pressure on my hands, trying to keep the pressure off tender parts.

Thank you all for posting your experiences with the Brooks saddles! I think I've read (and used) every post and piece of advice.

[wildeny]

Thanks for many comments.

I haven't tried to adjust the angle yet. This weekend I switched back to my trusty Specialized Romin SL for long rides. If I used B17 Imperial, I wouldn't complete the ride.

wildrover, thanks for the link. I also know this try-out but couldn't find the other link as well.

When I checked again on the reviews in Brooks web site. Some people also felt uncomfortable on the edge of the cut-out. These seem be the ones who gave lower rating and were not satisfied with the saddle. Maybe I'm like them.

It's really disappointing. I tried B17 Imperial because I would want a comfortable saddle for long distance rides (600k+, even 1200k!). The whole set (saddle and its "special" seatpost) weight much more than my original setup. This weight is nothing on the flat road but would have some disadvantage in the climbing.

[warneral]

I had a painful experience last night on my first ride this season using my new b17 imperial. My pain was mainly in the soft tissue reason and I was aware of my perenial area the whole ride. My other saddle, I hadn't even known it was there

I was wondering the same thing (whether the imperial is the problem).

I already had purchased a setback seatpost b/c of a bike fitting with my original saddle. Females have long femurs and often need that setback for proper knee over pedal positioning.

I don't really see a problem with the rails but it could be b/c I already get a good setback with my seatpost. I actually feel like there is a generous amount of adjustment on my rails.

I don't use the laces (yet) b/c I'm still fiddling with location on the rails and find the laces interfere with positioning front to back.

I did find some posts that said the saddle should be level (didn't realize that it is the nose that should be level) but it turns out my saddle had my nose pointed way up during my 20mi ride yesterday. I adjusted it (and will again) and will keep trying it. I want to love these saddles and will give it some time before I give up!

[wildeny]

Report back my recent experience.

On my third trial last Sat, I rode it on rollers doing aerobic TT test and found the riding experience had been improved. Before that I used hairdryer & proofide twice and forget about it for a while (because I had other cycling events).

Based on this good experience, on Sunday, I took it for 45k ride outdoors. Overall it's good. The edge of the cut-off was not as sharp as before, though it's still not soft enough either.

Maybe the leather has been softened a little somehow. Or maybe it's the small angle I adjusted after the first two trials. It might be because the first two trials on the roller - Isolate-Leg & Spin Step-ups training, put lots of pressure on the front.

Anyway, I will still try Brook B17 Imperial on longer courses later (after this Sat event).