Saddle Quest 2011

[hulagirl]

<sigh>

I need help bad. I am about 2 months into Saddle Quest 2011 and ready to quit and go back to numb girly bits.

Here's the info:

I'm riding an Orbea Diva in a relatively neutral position. (My saddle is just about half an inch taller than my handlebars.) I spend 50% of my time on the hoods, 30% in the drops and 20% in aerobars. I am FAR more comfortable in the drops and aerobar than on the hoods. I do NOT have any back, hand, wrist or arm pain. It's all about the saddle. I'm 5'8, 146lbs. I do use Chamios cream and ride in lightly padded cycle shorts (Giordanna Carbon).

History:

I've always had numb toes. Always. No matter what bike I was on (Soft Ride, Specialized Vita, Orbea) it would start with a sharp pain on the left foot on the outside of the foot, then the toes/forefoot would go numb equally on both feet. Usually within 5 minutes of the ride.

On my hybrid (Specialized Vita) I have a Dolce 155. Which seems fine as I'm more upright. But I do get the numb toes/left foot pain.

On my Orbea - I started with the Selle Italia Diva Lady Gel Flow. Looks to be about 155mm wide. And I get the numb toes + numb junk. The numb toes and junk go away within 5 minutes of the end of the ride.

Then I was told that you don't have to have numb junk! And I thought "No freaking way!" LBS (triathlon shop where I got my Orbea) lady/instructor/coach SWORE by her Selle SMP saddle and informed me that they do a saddle swap. So I thought I'd try it out.

Started with the Avant.

154mm wide is a pretty wide saddle. But based off my Dolce 155 I thought that would be good. The cut out was WONDERFUL. Junk is no longer numb. Toes = still numb, not as bad. But something new! That little area at the top inner part of your leg? Yeah...OUCH. Not the sit bone, just in front of it. Bruised and painful and just made me want to cry-but only on the left leg! But oh how I loved not having numb junk! Wow!

Tried the Pro next. 148mm wide. Numb toes going away! Junk is happy, inside of left leg is hurting still. Maybe less with this one.

Next up: Lite 209. 139mm wide. This one was VERY painful after about 30 miles. OUCH. Numb toes almost 100% gone. Left inner leg bruise/pain = hell.

Now I'm on the Dynamic. This one is 138mm wide. It have very little padding in the ridges along the cut out (which is what I was thinking was compressing into my leg/hip area). Problem is, it feels like I'm riding on a brick. Like 100% of my weight is now resting on that area just in front of my sit bones. I can feel the tendons and things getting compressed as I shift my weight. Toes are RARElY numb. Junk is a little numb - just starting to feel some compression there. But the inner left leg is really, really bad.

I went and had my LBS measure my bum on their Specialized Bum-measurer. 140 ish. Possible 145ish.

So there are my issues. Seems the wider seats cut off nerves and circulation to my toes. The thinner seats put way too much pressure on that area just in front of my seat bones - and 90% of the pain is on the left side. At this point I have 2 decisions: Numb/painful feet/toes and numb junk. Or incredible bruise/pain in saddle area of left leg.

I will say that the SMP saddles are HIGHLY comfortable for riding in the drops. But when I rotate forward I can feel the tendons in my left leg roll over that saddle ridge and I cringe. I find that I put weight into my legs/feet in order to relieve some of my saddle pain. And that might be contributing to the issue anyway. Coming up out of the drops is even more painful. Rolling back to my sit bones (which I'm never on BTW...is anyone? I'm only on them if I sit straight up hands-free) is worse than a root canal.

Any thoughts on this? The saddle is level. I may try to tilt it down just a hair and I might even knock the saddle to the right too. Dunno. I have a metric century in 1 week so I don't want mess with it too much. Should I try to move it forward? Back? I do find myself scooting back on the saddle now - but I think it's to alleviate some of the pressure on that inner leg area and spread it out. Shifting to the right or left more doesn't help anything.

I'm open to any thoughts, suggestions.

Many thanks for reading my book!

Denise

[hulagirl]

Thanks Muirenn! Some answers:

Had my sit-bones measured on the box at the LBS. Have not done it myself. Can't find a medium that will hold the indentations. (exercise mat, foam seat) Might have to do the bag of flour trick!

Bike fitting yes - for a VERY long time. I do not believe riding style has changed much. I do have a tighter right leg/hip issue that may be preventing me from extending my right leg as much. And I do unclip my right leg, so more weight in left leg.

Street shoes = 10 ish. Bike shoes 41.5 SIDI T1. I have had the numb toe issue in about 4 different pairs of bike shoes and I get it when I ride in gym shoes as well as Keen slippers.

Saddle position has been measured with the plum-bob technique. I'm supposedly right where I should be. Has been measured in the current saddle/shoes set up. I feel like I could go back further though.

The SMP Dynamic has a very, very gentle cutout area. It's almost flat. The more pronounced cutouts seem to make my toes numb - but less inner leg bruising. sigh...

I'm actually considering a Brooks. They are cheaper than the SMP!!!

[Biciclista]

what's wrong with trying a Brooks? people have been riding them for 100 years.
Just did a 68 mile ride Saturday (I'm 59 years old and way past menopause if you catch my drift) on my road bike with a B68 Brooks Imperial and my crotch was one of the few parts of me that wasn't hurting.
I am not sure about what is getting your toes, but geez, try a Brooks, it might solve both problems.
Welcome to TE.

[WindingRoad]

Yeah I wear a 9.5 - 10 street shoe and I actually just increased my shoe size in Sidi's b/c my 41.5's were just not working well. Love those shoes but they kill me after a while. I switched to a 43 but I also like to wear wool socks year round.

[Chicken Little]

Just from reading the post, wine glass in hand, and stabbing in the dark, I think your saddle is too high.
I also think I might be a bit tipsy.

[hulagirl]

Ah-ha! Self measured sit-bones 3 different ways comes out to a nearly spot on 150mm. That's center to center. 105mm closest points and 196 outside points. Geez!

That 138mm has to be way tiny then.

And holding up my paper "prints" shows me that my SI Diva is way thin too. How is this possible? Something aint right here.

Too high on the saddle? Hmm...I'll try to lower it a tad. I begin to get front knee pain rather quickly when I do that.

As for the Brooks: I'm not adverse to trying one. But it wasn't until recently that A) I saw one (not carried in Hawaii) and B) found a place that will allow you to try them. I'm a former horse lady - I KNOW the value of well-broken-in leather.

Not sure why shoe size is an issue. As I mentioned before - I got the numb toes in street shoes, slippers, bike shoes, Keen's, etc.

Thanks Muirenn - I read that thread and is why I posted. ;-) I don't know if I'll go so far as to photoshop all my saddles over each other. LOL!

[KnottedYet]

Knott has a glass of hard cider in hand, so take the following with a grain of salt-

Numb toes: dropped metatarsal head and/or toe box of various shoes is too narrow (though it is happening in Keens, so I'm betting on the dropped met head)

Saddle: your body is crying out for a narrow nose and wide sits.

Solve the toes: go to a good shoe store and ask for metatarsal arch support buttons. They go BEHIND the ball of your foot. Google "metatarsalgia" and "Morton's neuroma" and see if it sounds at all familiar. Also check "hot foot" here on TE. You also may be slightly too high for the way your ankles and feet prefer to work, see below.

Solve the saddle: try measuring your own sit bones. Rolling forward to relieve pressure is often a way of dealing with a too-narrow saddle. As you roll forward you go from the ischial tuberosities (wide) to the pubic rami (narrow) Make sure your saddle is at least as wide as your outside measurements. (A Brooks really needs to be at least 20mm wider than your outside measurements to keep you off of the metal cantle plate of the frame.) If you have a saddle handy that does have the width of your outside measurements, try using it and lowering your saddle slightly and moving it backward slightly. Your body might just prefer to work set back and down a bit (which it is faking by rolling forward as you get on narrower saddles) both for your feet and your buns. If you don't have one, or think your measurements are insanely wide, you probably ought to get one. (my sits are in the 180mm range, you can imagine what a thrill it was to finally find a saddle wide enough!)

Honestly, it doesn't matter why things work, only that they do work. The more you can investigate without spending money, the better. If you have a female fitter I'd suggest going back to her. I've corrected the fits for several women whose male fitters had set them up perfectly... if they had been men. Also, if you do decide to go the Brooks route I strongly recommend Wallingford Bicycle Parts. They have a 6 month free trial period on Brooks saddles. www.wallbike.com

ETA: ah, you measured and posted while I was drinking and posting. I suggest trying a Brooks B67 or Brooks B68 (NOT the B67-S "short" or the B68-S "short"), and don't be afraid to push the saddle all the way back on the rails if you feel like it. With 150mm center measurements, in all likelihood your outside is a good 170 or 180. I measure the bones directly with a tape measure, as I'm not sure the outside measurement can be accurately done with an imprint. (sit on your hands, move your fingertip to the outside of the bone you feel, leave fingers on chair, have someone measure the distance between your fingertips. Or ask someone you trust to measure your heinie directly.)

ETAA: Your experience with horse saddles is a big bonus here. Does it help to know that Brooks bike saddles are based on English horse riding saddles?

[hulagirl]

Knotted Yet - So happy you replied! Did you see my measurements?! Hot diggity dog they are huge! I mean 195-200mm outside points? Wow!

I've attached the "best" print I got. Am I doing this right?



Oh jeez...that image is huge! Sorry!!!

[hulagirl]

I gotta say the "ribbed decking" that I sat on left the best imprint. Perhaps we should add that to a FAQ? LOL! I need to go drink some wine as well I see.

[warneral]

I have wide sitbones and really love my cheap 40.00 planet bike women's ars - http://www.amazon.com/Planet-Bike-50...971178&sr=1-22

For my birthday I ordered the Brooks B17. I know I should have followed these ladies' advice and gone with the B68 but I was afraid it would look huge on my little bike. I'm sure it would since the B17 looks huge LOL!

Alas, my sitbones appear to be hitting the metal edging that the leather stretches over.

I'm considering trying the B68, but then again, I actually really like my planet bike saddle. I rode more mileage than I ever had last year and the saddle kept me from ever having any problems.

[KnottedYet]

I ETA'd my post above a couple times, might want to re-read and see if I added anything since you last read it. (I'm on glass of hard cider #2 now, and can't be trusted a bit!)

Add 20-40mm to your center measurement to guess at your outside measurement, or ask someone to help you measure your outside directly. I really don't trust imprints to do more than give a good center measurement.

Center is a very useful measurement. You want the center of the "cheeks" of a padded saddle to meet your bone centers. You want the outsides of the saddle to match the outsides (or be at least 20mm wider in the case of a Brooks or other suspended leather saddle) of the sit bones.

With a 150 c-to-c, you are going to have a hard time finding a padded saddle with 150mm cheek/dome span, and with a likely 170-190ish outside you are going to have a very hard time finding a wide enough saddle that isn't also insanely padded. (many companies think "wide" also means "super-padded.")

I'd go straight for the gusto and do the free trial on a Brooks B68 (no springs) or B67 (springs). I have both saddles on my various bikes. My favorite is the B67. I like that the springs give just enough under my lopsided pelvis. (they do not bounce, they are very very rigid springs)

[zoom-zoom]

Knot, while I have your cider-infused attention (man, I wish I had some cider right now, too!), can you share some of your knowledge here...

ETA: my goofy Photoshopping to compare the footprint of the Jett 143 to the Donna.

[ny biker]

Add 20-40mm to your center measurement to guess at your outside measurement, or ask someone to help you measure your outside directly. I really don't trust imprints to do more than give a good center measurement.

Center is a very useful measurement. You want the center of the "cheeks" of a padded saddle to meet your bone centers. You want the outsides of the saddle to match the outsides (or be at least 20mm wider in the case of a Brooks or other suspended leather saddle) of the sit bones.

This explains a lot!! Both the Specialized and Bontrager measuring things indicate I should be on a 145-ish saddle, which made no sense to me because it put the edges of my sit bones very close to the edges of the saddle. I measure about 120-125 mm center to center.

[hulagirl]

Oh man oh man am I going to look silly with a ginourmous Brooks B68 in triathlons! Like wearing a wetsuit for the open water swim in Hawaii! Eeek!

[KnottedYet]

Knot, while I have your cider-infused attention (man, I wish I had some cider right now, too!), can you share some of your knowledge here...

ETA: my goofy Photoshopping to compare the footprint of the Jett 143 to the Donna.

I "doed" it. (too much cider -snort-) LOVE the photoshop! You are awesome!