DebW in the 21st century?

[DebW]

I've begun talking to Peter Mooney at Belmont Wheelworks about a custom frame and how to build it up. Peter builds classic lugged steel frames and has an excellent reputation. Denise G.'s touring bike was built by him. I'm interested in an S&S coupled light touring design. I want something I can travel with and tour on with enough versatility for fast road riding and unpaved rail trails. I want racks front and rear, but would probably pull a trailer for loads more than 20-25 lb. Below are some of the issues that I'm thinking about. I welcome comments, suggestions, and your related experiences. I'm really trying to abandon my old prejudices and have an open mind regarding the innovations in the bike industry in the last 30 years. I have a fitting appointment on Sunday, and, whenever it gets warm enough around here, can go test ride some bikes with STI and Ergo and bar-end shifters.

1) geometry - Peter's advice is to design the bike for the way you use it most often, which would lead me to more of a sport geometry than a touring geometry. OTOH, I want the option for touring and expect to have this frame for 20-30 years (if i live that long), so well into retirement. My work hours are already starting to shrink due to funding issues. How much I tour will to a large extend depend on how much I backpack instead.

2) wheel size - Peter looked at me and immediately started talking about 650 wheels because of my size (5' 7" with 32" inseam, ie. short torso and arms). I was talking 650 wheels because of travel case constraints. He will recommend 650 vs 700 after sizing me. He says I could run both 650s for go-fast riding and 26" for touring just by moving the brake pads a bit. What about 700s with short-reach brakes and 26" with cantis? Probably 32mm wide tires at max due to frame size constraints.

3) gears - Definitely a triple. Peter was talking only Shimano and Campy which are only available with a 30T inner chainring, and thus maybe a Shimano mtb cassette of 34T or Campy 29T. There are other options. How low of a gear do I really need? Worst case will be riding with my friend and taking a turn pulling her 2 kids in the trailer (60 lb and going up). For camping I'd probably have 30 lb.

4) racks - Tubus racks were recommended. I like with the Cosmos rear with Nova front in stainless steel or the mid-weight Vega rear and Ergo front.

5) wheels - I was told "Nobody builds wheels any more. Factory wheels are stronger. Straight-pull spokes almost never need truing." I listened politely and looked at a Mavic wheel. BUT I LIKE TO BUILD WHEELS. And I've saved SK's hand-built wheel specs.

[Veronica]

My Rambouillet I think fits the bill of what you want to do with your new bike.

It's suitable for fast road riding, with the right tires and wheels it can go off road, and I used it to pull a trailer last year in Nova Scotia. So geometry wise I think you can get all the things you want in a custom.

Gearing - why switch from your friction shifters? Maybe go to bar ends. We went up one hill in Nova Scotia that I could barely get up with the trailer (70 ish pounds) and I have a a 24 inner chain ring and a 27 in the rear. I guess if you're never going to haul the kids anywhere hilly.

Wheels - I'd never go off road with the Mavic Ksyriums I have. But my first ride with my hand builts we went wandering off on a new fire trail.

Good luck and happy planning!

V.

[DebW]

Thanks, V. I appreciate the pounds vs gear ratio. Hard to figure that out until you do it. My only touring experience was in my 20s when I'd swap a 14-24 for a 14-28, swap the rear derailleur, add a few chain links, attach the paniers, and tour for a weekend on a 45-52 double.

I think the fat-tire touring/off-road 26" wheels will definitely be hand built. The 650 or 700c road wheels could go either way.

I am a fan of friction shifters. But this is a good chance to try the newer options before I make a decision. I would feel better with an 8- or 9-speed chain than a 10-speed. The bike shop wants to push the new stuff - probably because it's in stock.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Deb, you sound like you have long legs and very short torso/arm reach. Be aware of getting a "larger" frame because of your legs/standover height, and then having reach problems because of the top tube length on a large frame. Might be a bigger problem for you especially if you choose 700 wheels (which require a longer bike to avoid toe overlap. Because of your shorter reach, you might wind up having to get a really short stem in order to feel balanced. Keep the proportion between standover frame size and top tube reach in mind when planning your bike, because your proportions are quite different than a typical man your same height.

[DebW]

Deb, you sound like you have long legs and very short torso/arm reach. Be aware of getting a "larger" frame because of your legs/standover height, and then having reach problems because of the top tube length on a large frame. Might be a bigger problem for you especially if you choose 700 wheels (which require a longer bike to avoid toe overlap. Because of your shorter reach, you might wind up having to get a really short stem in order to feel balanced. Keep the proportion between standover frame size and top tube reach in mind when planning your bike, because your proportions are quite different than a typical man your same height.

That's why I'm going custom.

[Triskeliongirl]

1) Geometry: You know I did something similar recently and indeed went with a sport vs touring geometry, but not racing, and am very happy with it. I think unless you plan to carry very heavy loads its fine, and I have no problem with rear rack clearance. But, I am very glad that I went with front AND rear racks. As long as your load is balanced, the sport geometry is fine. I say this also cuz you'll find a true touring geometry sluggish on a fast road ride.

2) Wheel Size: Thats interesting to see your stats. I am even shorter than you, only 5'4" but my inseam is 31.5", so I have a super short torso. Given that your torso is a lot longer than mine, I think 700c wheels should be fine (and that is what you currently use, right?). While it is true that 650 wheels pack better than 700s, here is the problem. 650C wheels, are only available in widths up to 28c (the terry tellus, a nice tire by the way), although there are good options in racing widths like 23c. You could go 650b, but then the skinniest you can go is 34c. So if you want to be able to use tires in the 23c-32c range, you are better off with 700c. That is one of the reasons I used the 700/24" combo on my bike, instead of 2 650s, wanted to use tires from 23-32c wide (which are also available for 24"). You can pack 700c wheels in an s/s case, but you have to deflate them.

3) gears - I built my bike with a 50/34 front and 11/34 rear for a range of 26-119 gear inches. But for loaded touring you may want to go as low as 19". I love the simplicity of my double, but if you are gonna go with a triple, I think you are better off with one of the touring triples (I think sugino makes one, I can ask a friend who just built a custom waterford adventure bike, I think he used one of those) and a road casette than a mountain. I like my set-up, but it is a compromise for simplicity and has bigger gaps between gears but if I were gonna go with a triple, I'd go for a touring triple.

4) racks - I hear Tubus racks are excellent.

5) wheels - "I was told "Nobody builds wheels any more. " That isn't true. I always use human built wheels. Again, I will ask my friend for what he chose for his waterford, I know he put a lot of thought into it.

6) brakes- I would go with cantis. I used the shimano 550s that work good with sti/ergo levers. The problem with long reach side pulls is that you lose mechanical advantage with the long arms, and I think its still hard to fit fenders under them, or get the wheels out without deflation, but I may be wrong on this point.

[emily_in_nc]

Hey DebW,

Just a data point on gearing....I toured with four panniers in upstate NY in fall of 2004 on my Bike Friday. I wasn't super heavily loaded since I'm so small (DH carried the heavy stuff!), so my load was mostly clothing, plus the weight of front/rear racks and Arkel panniers and front bag, some food, camera, etc. We toured in a very hilly area around the Finger Lakes. I needed every gear I have -- a 30" front ring and a 34T rear (XT derailleur). With the Bike Friday's 20" wheels, I believe that was something like a 19" gear. I am not a super strong hill climber by any means, but I had trained well for the tour and was in very good shape (for me) at the time, or so I thought! By about the fourth day, a couple of steep hills had me in my lowest of granny gears. There were even two hills near the end of our longest day (nearly 80 miles) that I had to walk part of even with my ultra-low gearing, because I was spent -- just needed to use different muscles for awhile.

So....with the load you're talking about, I'd definitely recommend mountain gearing in the rear. I'd also probably go with Shimano just because they are by far more common/popular than Campy, so easier to find parts and shops that can help you on the way, if disaster strikes. Don't get me wrong, I love Campy (have Chorus on my Aegis Swift), but not for a touring bike, just for practical reasons. I also went with bar-end shifting for the same reason when I had my Friday built and was very happy with my choice, despite initial skepticism. I went with 9-speed.

Have a blast building your custom bike!

Emily

[DebW]

2) Wheel Size: Thats interesting to see your stats. I am even shorter than you, only 5'4" but my inseam is 31.5", so I have a super short torso. Given that your torso is a lot longer than mine, I think 700c wheels should be fine (and that is what you currently use, right?). While it is true that 650 wheels pack better than 700s, here is the problem. 650C wheels, are only available in widths up to 28c (the terry tellus, a nice tire by the way), although there are good options in racing widths like 23c. You could go 650b, but then the skinniest you can go is 34c. So if you want to be able to use tires in the 23c-32c range, you are better off with 700c. That is one of the reasons I used the 700/24" combo on my bike, instead of 2 650s, wanted to use tires from 23-32c wide (which are also available for 24"). You can pack 700c wheels in an s/s case, but you have to deflate them.

That must be why the builder recommended BOTH 650s and 26" wheels. Plus I could put a mountain cassette on the touring wheels and something narrower on the 650s. I've always ridden 700c but if I don't place my cleats carefully I get toe clip overlap (size 41 shoes). I've never had a professional fitting, so I'm anxious to see what I learn tomorow.

[Triskeliongirl]

That must be why the builder recommended BOTH 650s and 26" wheels. Plus I could put a mountain cassette on the touring wheels and something narrower on the 650s. I've always ridden 700c but if I don't place my cleats carefully I get toe clip overlap (size 41 shoes). I've never had a professional fitting, so I'm anxious to see what I learn tomorow.

Oh I get it, he could build it so it could use either a 650b or 650c wheelset, so you could keep one set for touring and one for fast riding. That's a very cool idea, I thought you had to choose one or ther other (cuz at least with cantis won't adjusting the brakes be a pita everytime you change your wheelset. I guess it would be easier with sidepulls). I kind of do that now anyway, that is for convenience I have a lighter wheelset that I keep 23c tires on and a sturdier one (more spokes) that I keep 32c tires on even though they are both 700c/24" sets. If I were to have gone custom, I would have really explored the 650 options better, but none of the stock frames with 650 wheels fit me since I need such a slack seat tube angle (I have a really long thigh so need a max STA of 73 deg, hard to find in smaller frame sizes). I found a link to the site where my friend shows the parts he used to build his waterford: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=84156

Another thing to watch for on smaller framed bikes is room to get your rack on. I find it is much easier to mount a rear rack on my bike with cantis than side pull brakes, so I strongly recommend going with cantis unless that will make the two wheelset thing too impractical, cuz that is a cool idea.

One more thought, I like your idea of keeping different casettes on each wheelset to. Do know with my XT rear derailleur, I notice no difference in shifting even a road casette (12-27) than with an ultegra rear derailleur, so while some things I read made me nervous about it, it was just fine (maybe its only an issue for very narrow racing casettes).

Do know one advantage of shimano 9 spd is that you can mix and match road and mountain parts, so I have road stuff in front and mountain in back. I am very happy with sti shifters and mountain gearing. I agree with Emily that on a bike like a friday where the wheelbase is quite short bar end shifting can work better, but I really like sti. You'll notice on my friend's waterford he chose bar ends so he could use a brake lever that is similar in feel to the campy levers on his other bikes.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

You could go 650b, but then the skinniest you can go is 34c. So if you want to be able to use tires in the 23c-32c range, you are better off with 700c.

I'm confused. What about these thinner 650B tires listed by Rivendell?:
http://www.rivbike.com/tires/models

[Triskeliongirl]

I'm confused. What about these thinner 650B tires listed by Rivendell?:
http://www.rivbike.com/tires/models

Then I am mistaken. I thought that based on the smallest tire that harris sells which is 34c, but my point is the same, even 30c is still a very wide tire and if she wants to be able to also use the bike for fast road riding, she will want to be able to use tires in the 23-25c width range. But, her idea of building it to accomdoate both 650b and 650c wheels is an excellent solution.

[Triskeliongirl]

more random thoughts on gearing. i ran some numbers through sheldon's caluclator. the lowest gear you can get with a 30 x 34 and 26" wheels is 23". I don't think that is low enough for loaded touring or pulling a trailer with kids, unless you are on flat terrain. A standard road triple has a low ring of 30, but the suginos go lower. You'll have to be careful to not be undergeared at the high end, but I would explore what is available in the sugino sets.

[DebW]

Looks like you can put a Sugino 24, 26, or 28T granny ring on any standard road triple with 74 mm bolt circle. No shift ramps to worry about on a granny.

[DebW]

I had my fitting for the custom Peter Mooney frame today. The new frame will take 700c wheels. It didn't take Peter long to realize that. My current frame is actually quite a good fit. The only things he did to it were lower the saddle (which I had recently raised) and raise the handlebars (they were already at their max but he put them 3/4" higher) so saddle and hbars were about equal. Then he put me on the adjustable frame-fitting trainer and ended up shortening my top tube a little bit. Also tried 4 different saddles and I ended up preferring a Butterfly. I didn't like the handlebar with a straight section below the levers. Tentative decisions on components are a 12-34 cassette and XTR rear derailleur, Ultegra triple 30-39-52 crankset and FD, barcon shifters, long reach caliper brakes (not canti). I can replace the 30t chainring with a 24 or 26 later if I need to. I wil undoubtedly use a narrower-range cassette when I don't need those wide gears. I'll be building myself a set of touring wheels with Ultegra hubs, 36h rear, 32h front. Tubus Vega rear rack and Ergo front. Even decided on some small lug cut-outs and picked a color (metalic silvery-blue to blend in with the S&S couplers). I'll get a detailed component list in about a week.

The places where Peter's opinion differed from mine were on the wheels (he recommended factory build wheels, but I wanted to build my own and have some of me in the bike). I asked about White Industries hubs, and he thinks they are overpriced. He doesn't like front racks and the wheelbase will get stretched a bit to include one. He prefers STI shifters and dis-recommended downtubes since they are not made any more. He doesn't like canti brakes, and I'm not a big fan of them either - they are harder to adjust and need cable hangers. I think Ultegra or Campy cranks with outboard bearings are a better choice than Sugino. If removing cranks is required to pack the bike in the S&S case, removing Sugino cranks from a square-tapered bb spindle would be a lot of work (builds strong muscles and sore hands).

Maybe just for sentimental reasons, I'll put my sewup wheels with the the 33 year old Campy hubs on the new bike long enough to transfer some of their "essense". I'd need to space the rear hub out some more and put on a 7 or 8 speed freewheel.

[Triskeliongirl]

SO, the plan is forming! You must be so excited. Listen to his advice, but you know a lot about this too so don't be afraid to trust your intuition. In the end, its your bike. That is great he thinks you can use 700c wheels, it will give you a lot more flexiblity. The only thing I think you might want to reconsider are the bar cons vs sti shifters. Sti is just so easy to shift since your hands are already on the hoods. I don't think I would like having to move to the drops everytime I wanted to make a shift. Maybe it would help if he had a bike in the shop you could test ride with sti. If you have small hands you may want the ones (ultegra level) with shims designed for smaller hands. I am also curious if he said you can fit fenders and 32c tires with the long reach side pull brakes. I think if its a sport frame its just easier to design it for long reach side pulls. When I had my frame retrofit, I noticed there wasn't a lot of room in there for cantis, so my frame builder had a special device he built to mount cantis inside a smaller than ideal space, although it its custom maybe they do have a lot of flexiblity. I had to either use cantis or move the bridge, and I worried moving the bridge would weaken the frame, and I already owned a set of cantis, so I went that route and have no regrets.

p.s. if you have any questions on the specs of the waterford my friend built he said you can send him an email (his address was in the email I sent you last night).