New bike = slow, slow, slow

I am boggled. I recently upgraded from a Trek 1.2 aluminum frame bike (triple) to a Specialized Ruby carbon (compact). I am feeling very discouraged as I feel I am working so much harder to power the Ruby, and seem to be moving at a much slower pace. A ride that I normally average 15.5 mph, has been in the 14 mph range since I have made the switch.

I read through some of the compact vs triple threads here on TE and I am not sure it is the compact that is causing the issue. The cassette on my Trek was an 11-26, 9 speed and my Ruby is a 12-27, 10 speed.

I am scheduling a fit with my LBS, as that seemed to make a huge difference in my performance on the Trek, but is there anything I should look at in the meantime, that could cause such a huge difference in my riding between the two bikes? Here are the specs on the two bikes:

http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes..._series/12wsd/

http://wheelworld.com/product/specs/...mpact-6075.htm

Any suggestions/advice is greatly appreciated! TIA!

It might be something to do with the geometry and your position on the bike. At certain seat tube angles/crank arm length combinations, I know I'm slower than with what I'm used to.

Does your position feel any different?

How hilly are the rides you do? Are you hanging out in different gears?

I don't really have any useful advice for you, but if it makes you feel any better...I went through the same exact thing when I upgraded from my aluminum/carbon mix Trek 2100 WSD (triple) to a full-carbon Cervelo aero roadbike (compact). Talk about feeling discouraged! The first few rides on the Cervelo felt like I was dragging a grand piano behind me! I was extremely frustrated that I had spent so much money on a full carbon aero bike, only to ride WAY slower than I ever had on my Trek. I'm not sure if it was the switch to the compact crank or what...but, it did take me a good while to get used to the new bike. The biggest difference I noticed was on hills. In my area, we don't really have "hills" they way most folks know hills. Ours are more like "bumps" rather than mountains. On my Trek, I was able to power up the hills with no problems (and that was NOT using my granny gear!). So it was a big surprise to me, when I rode up my first hill on the Cervelo...only to find that even in the lowest gear possible...I could barely make it up the whole way! Maybe you just need more saddle time on the Ruby to get more comfy. Now that I've ridden my Cervelo for a season (4,700 miles), I don't feel as slow as I initially did...but some of the hills are still an issue for me. Obviously, hills are my weakness...so I'll be devoting a lot of time this year to improving in that area.

Linda

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Originally Posted by nscrbug

Talk about feeling discouraged! The first few rides on the Cervelo felt like I was dragging a grand piano behind me! I was extremely frustrated that I had spent so much money on a full carbon aero bike, only to ride WAY slower than I ever had on my Trek.

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Yes, yes, YES! I wanted to cry today while out on my ride.

I live in Salt Lake City, which is very hilly. I find that I am slower on the climbs, but even more frustrating is on the flats, when I am really pushing it hard and see that I am hardly moving.

The geometry of the bike does feel different than my Trek. Not uncomfortable, or cramped or anything, just different. I know I need to raise my saddle up a bit. What difference would crank arm size have? I am headed out to the garage with my measuring tape right now to see if there is a big difference between the two.

ETA: The crank arms are the same length.

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Originally Posted by greenbeanvw

Yes, yes, YES! I wanted to cry today while out on my ride.

I live in Salt Lake City, which is very hilly. I find that I am slower on the climbs, but even more frustrating is on the flats, when I am really pushing it hard and see that I am hardly moving.

The geometry of the bike does feel different than my Trek. Not uncomfortable, or cramped or anything, just different. I know I need to raise my saddle up a bit. What difference would crank arm size have? I am headed out to the garage with my measuring tape right now to see if there is a big difference between the two.

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Good question...but I honestly don't know. The cranks on both of my bikes were the same size - 170. The geometries on my bikes are quite different. Going from the Trek, which had a taller headtube (thus putting me more upright)...to the Cervelo, which essentially has ZERO headtube...placing me in a much more aggressive, racing position. This has impacted my overall "comfort" on the bike...so perhaps that is why I'm riding slower on the Cervelo. I have recently "flipped" my stem to put me in a more upright position, so hopefully this will help somewhat with my comfort issues.

Please don't get mad at me for saying this, but if you haven't done so, take a minute and make absolutely sure your brakes aren't dragging. There is nothing that can sap your energy (and speed) like dragging brakes. They're worse than a headwind.

Having your saddle height/setback dramatically wrong could also affect your power, but you'd probably notice if your saddle was way off since you are used to how your old bike felt and the new one would feel immediately wrong.

When I went from a 52/42/32 triple with 11/23 cassette to a standard double with a 12/25 cassette, I did have an uncomfortable gearing spot that was somewhere around 42/11-13. 39/12 was a little easy (and rubbed on my bike) but 53/middle gears were a bit hard. Basically I had to get a little bit stronger so I could cruise in the big chainring.

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Originally Posted by liza

take a minute and make absolutely sure your brakes aren't dragging.

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That was my first thought, too.

Beyond the possibility that your brakes are rubbing, my guess is that you just need to tweak your fit and position. It's possible that your seat is too low and/ or too far fore or aft. You'd be surprised what a few minor modifications can do. Hopefully, your bike fitting will help iron it out.

I just checked the brakes and they seem to be okay (albeit very dirty from this morning's ride).

I am willing to bet my saddle height had a lot to do with it. I wonder if I didn't have the bolt around the seat post tightened enough because it seems to have gone down a bit from when I initially put it at the correct height.

Liza - I do think I have the uncomfortable gearing spot you are talking about. It seems when I am in my small ring, my legs are spinning too fast, but when I jump up to the big ring, I am not strong enough to really lay into it. I will keep in plugging away and hopefully my legs will restore some confidence in my riding.

Thank you all for the ideas!

I am sorry about what you're experiencing. I'm starting to think about my next bike and that's a thing I fear.

I do think though that raising the saddle will have a BIG impact on your speed. Give it a chance!

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Originally Posted by greenbeanvw

I just checked the brakes and they seem to be okay (albeit very dirty from this morning's ride).

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Even if your brakes aren't rubbing when you inspect them, I've found normal flexing in the wheels and frame (or fork) can still make them drag, especially when I'm pedalling my hardest!

Many new bikes are delivered with the brake pads set close to the rim, often just 1 or 2 mm between the rim and each brake pad; if that's the case with your new bike, consider loosening the brake cables a little to open up the gap. I like about a 3 to 4mm gap on each side of the rim.

(This also makes braking easier for me, since it brings the brake lever closer into my hand when I squeeze.)

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Originally Posted by greenbeanvw

I just checked the brakes and they seem to be okay (albeit very dirty from this morning's ride).

I am willing to bet my saddle height had a lot to do with it. I wonder if I didn't have the bolt around the seat post tightened enough because it seems to have gone down a bit from when I initially put it at the correct height.

Liza - I do think I have the uncomfortable gearing spot you are talking about. It seems when I am in my small ring, my legs are spinning too fast, but when I jump up to the big ring, I am not strong enough to really lay into it. I will keep in plugging away and hopefully my legs will restore some confidence in my riding.

Thank you all for the ideas!

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I bought a new bike last March and had to play around with my fit for a while to get it dialed in. I did a hilly ride in June after playing around with my saddle height. It was one of the worst rides I'd ever done. I could pedal by the end of the ride and I felt horrible about my performance. I didn't notice until I got home that the seatpost had slipped WAY down, which largely explained why I didn't have any power by the end of the ride.

if it is the elite compact, you should check the rubber dust seals on the hubs. if it is new out of the box, a lot of times the guys that put them together don't check those, and sometimes they need a little oil between the dust seals and the hub, otherwise, they can drag. good luck!

Thanks everyone! The brake pads are very close to the wheel, but not touching. I will loosen them up a bit and see if that makes a difference. I will try putting a little oil between the seals and hub as well. I appreciate all of your suggestions.

Yes, definitely brakes can drag even if they're not doing it on the stand. I always attributed it to the rim and tire expanding as they heat up, because when it's happened to me it (1) hasn't been intermittent, as flexing would be, and (2) continued to drag when I'd get off the bike and spin the wheel.

BTDT on a very hilly ride. Figured it out on a false flat in the middle of a 15-18% grade. D'oh!

On the gearing, if you're having trouble shifting by feel, make out a gearing chart and figure out what gears on your new bike correspond most closely to the gears you used the most on your old bike. How much difference is there? Where are the big jumps? Maybe a different cassette would make you more comfortable. Any time you shift the big ring it should be a big jump. When you shift the big ring, you'll normally need two or three rear shifts to get one step away from the gear you were in previously. Again, a gearing chart will help you figure that out.

I'm just thinking out loud here...but maybe it'll help. What things affect speed?

1) overall weight of a bike
2) rotation mass of the bike
3) rolling resistance of tires
4) fit/position
5) aerodynamics
6) drivetrain drag
7) gearing

Anything else I'm missing? Weight affect your speed on relatively flat routes is negligible...so rule out #1 unless you're route is very hilly. So how about the wheel/tire/tube combo? Does the new bike have a lighter package? Or heavier? What psi are you inflate to? Does this bike have wider or skinnier tires? Does the tire/tube combo yield lower or higher rolling resistance?

How is the fit on the Ruby compared to the 1.2? More relaxed? More aggressive? Are the seat heights the same? How about crankarm lengths? Crankarm length won't make a big difference...and in the cycling world, 1.5mph (from 15.5 down to 14) is GARGANTUAN!!!!!!!!!! But you definitely don't want to be turning a crank that's too long for you as that could lead to knee problems.

Regarding aerodynamics...they're both roadbikes...so he difference is negligible. Unless the position on the ruby is very very relaxed compared to the 1.2...in which case, aerodynamics of your fit could play a very very non-trivial role.

Drivetrain drag? Double check those brakes to make sure they're not rubbing. Wheels should turn easily and freely...bearings should be well greased. Same with bottom bracket. And the chain. Sometimes, on a new bike, it make take several rides for everything to loosen up.

Gearing...I think might be playing a small role. You went from your Trek with a 50-39-30 crank and 11-26 cassette to the Ruby with a compact 50-36 with a 12-27 cassette. The highest gear ratio on the Trek is the 50-11 combo (8.9)...highest on the Specialized is the 50-12 combo (8.2). So all things being equal (tires, tubes, pressure, rotational mass, your power and cadence,ect)...if you were able to maintain a 60RPM cadence, you'd be going 21.3mph on the Trek and 19.5mph on the Specialized. A difference of 1.8mph...similar to the speed disparity you've been noticing.

So if it's gearing...how can you change it? Get a 11-28 cassette for the Ruby. That'll give you a high end ratio of 8.9 (just like your Trek)...and a low end of 2.5 (pretty close to the 2.3 you can achieve with the Trek) for the hills.

So how about the wheel/tire/tube combo? Does the new bike have a lighter package? Or heavier? What psi are you inflate to? Does this bike have wider or skinnier tires? Does the tire/tube combo yield lower or higher rolling resistance? The new bikes' setup is lighter than the Trek, the tires are the same.

How is the fit on the Ruby compared to the 1.2? More relaxed? More aggressive? Are the seat heights the same? How about crankarm lengths? The Ruby has a more aggressive position, crankarms are the same length, I think the seat height may be a little different but I am raising it a bit at a time until it feels right.

Double check those brakes to make sure they're not rubbing. Wheels should turn easily and freely...bearings should be well greased. Same with bottom bracket. And the chain. Sometimes, on a new bike, it make take several rides for everything to loosen up. Just loosened the brakes and will grease up the chain this afternoon.

Gearing...I think might be playing a small role. You went from your Trek with a 50-39-30 crank and 11-26 cassette to the Ruby with a compact 50-36 with a 12-27 cassette. The highest gear ratio on the Trek is the 50-11 combo (8.9)...highest on the Specialized is the 50-12 combo (8.2). So all things being equal (tires, tubes, pressure, rotational mass, your power and cadence,ect)...if you were able to maintain a 60RPM cadence, you'd be going 21.3mph on the Trek and 19.5mph on the Specialized. A difference of 1.8mph...similar to the speed disparity you've been noticing.

So if it's gearing...how can you change it? Get a 11-28 cassette for the Ruby. That'll give you a high end ratio of 8.9 (just like your Trek)...and a low end of 2.5 (pretty close to the 2.3 you can achieve with the Trek) for the hills. This makes a lot of sense to me, the way you have explained it. I wonder how much a new cassette would run me? :cool:

Thank you for the detailed reply!

Teamtrinity, I called my LBS and they are going to put an 11-28 on it tonight or tomorrow. THANK YOU.

I had the same problem on my new Orbea on one of my first rides and it was the brakes rubbing. Once I fixed that, I was flying! I'm so glad you guys are talking about this, because I had also been wondering if the flex could cause them to rub inadvertently while I'm riding, because off and on during rides sometimes it still seems like I'm pushing harder than I should, but when I stop to look at the brakes, they look fine! I think I'll adjust the cables and see if that helps overall.

-Jessica

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I'm just thinking out loud here...but maybe it'll help. What things affect speed?

1) overall weight of a bike
2) rotation mass of the bike
3) rolling resistance of tires
4) fit/position
5) aerodynamics
6) drivetrain drag
7) gearing

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overall weight of a bike, assuming you aren't going from a 15 pounder to a dutch cargo bike, should have very little effect on "speed." Rotating weight plays a much larger role.

I am also having a hard time buying any measurable effect due to rolling resistance of tires, assuming tires are reasonably similar from bike to bike.

What is "drivetrain drag?"

Why would the gearing matter? If you are riding the same gear on both bikes, it doesn't matter what your lowest gear or highest gear is...unless you are letting the gears choose you instead of vice versa? Bikes don't have automatic transmissions--you choose the gears. The only time it would result in "slowing" is if you are spinning out your biggest gear...and I kinda doubt that is what is happening.

My hunch is that any measurable "slowing" has to do with whatever changes have occurred in your position, particularly all the variables involving your saddle position. That is where your power comes from. Any change in saddle height, saddle fore/aft, or seat tube angle can have an effect on your power and ability to turn over the gears.

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Originally Posted by greenbeanvw

Teamtrinity, I called my LBS and they are going to put an 11-28 on it tonight or tomorrow. THANK YOU.

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My post above with ratios was mostly for illustrative purposes to show how your gearing choices can affect speed. HOWEVER...keep this in mind...you may not see a jump up in average speed of 1.8mph. It really depends on your route...and what gear you typically find yourself riding in.

Your 12-27 was probably: 12-13-14-15-16-17-19-21-24-27
Your 11-26 was probably: 11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-23-26

See how on the smaller end they both have 12-13-14-15-17? If you spent a lot of time in the 11 or 15 on the Trek, that might account for the slower speed on the Specialized because you would have had 12 as your smallest...and you may have been using the 16 instead of the 15.

And your 11-28 will probably be: 11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-28

The first 8 gears will be the same as your Trek...and it'll also have 8 gears in common with your 12-27 currently on the Specialized. Again...you may see a bump up in average speed...but it'll only a a significant bump up in speed if you tend to use the smallest gear alot.

In any case....good luck!!!!

I did use the small gear quite a bit on my Trek for the hills in my area and I feel as if I am missing my "middle range gear" on the Specialized (I am guessing this is the 16)?

How many mm's of space do you all keep between your wheel and the brake pad? Mine were so close initially, that I really had to look to make sure they weren't rubbing. I just loosened them to the point that I can see the space between the two, but the brakes still do their job.

Would you all wait a few weeks and get a fit before you switched out the cassette?

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Originally Posted by greenbeanvw

Teamtrinity, I called my LBS and they are going to put an 11-28 on it tonight or tomorrow. THANK YOU.

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I recently put 11-28 on my Trek 5.2 (compact). I had similar issues moving from my Specialized TriCross Triple (with an 11x34 cassette!). The 11-28 has helped quite a bit. I hope you have similar experience to me.

I'd also recommend getting fitted professionally. My fit changes have made riding SO much more enjoyable. No more sore shoulders!

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Originally Posted by greenbeanvw

I did use the small gear quite a bit on my Trek for the hills in my area and I feel as if I am missing my "middle range gear" on the Specialized (I am guessing this is the 16)?

How many mm's of space do you all keep between your wheel and the brake pad? Mine were so close initially, that I really had to look to make sure they weren't rubbing. I just loosened them to the point that I can see the space between the two, but the brakes still do their job.

Would you all wait a few weeks and get a fit before you switched out the cassette?

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Absolutely...get the fit done first. Then ride the snot out of the bike for 2-3 weeks. If it still feels slow...then think about changing gears.

As far as the Specialized feeling like it's missing a middle range gear...it's possible. I'm just guessing on the exact configuration of your cassettes. The smallest gear in the cassette probably wouldn't be used for climbing though. Your climbing gear would be the small chainring up front, with the largest cog on the cassette in the back.

As far as the brakes...mine are set pretty close. I never measure...I just guesstimate. Close...but not close enough where they rub on the road.

Aluminum has a much stiffer feel than carbon, in my experience. Some carbon bikes feel sluggish to me. I have a carbon bike now and love it, but in trying bikes during my search there were some very expensive carbon bikes that felt too soft for me and my riding style.