Serious Issue: Advice for Dealing with Alcoholics

Met a nice guy at the ER tonight...he's a cyclist/runner that was the nurse caring for Mr. Silver Mom when we took her to the hospital.

After a fall in her assisted living apartment at 11PM, we weren't sure if she was having a stroke or not.

No stroke, but .22 on blood alcohol (at least 2 hrs after the fall...:eek:). Yep, that's pickled...legal limit in Indiana is .08...

Mom and Dad used to each consume 12-16 ounces of Scotch/day. We intervened and got that reduced to 6 ounces/day - administered in measured quantities from the nursing staff at their home (along with their medication:o) We further modified this in the last couple weeks by diluting the supply...after dad had several falls in one day (he's now in a rehab facility recovering from the falls...)

My resourceful parents have clearly found another source and are bypassing regulated quantities.

There's any one of a number of things that I can do:

• find 'their source; and get a restraining order (this is easy)
• limit their access to cash (I'm already trustee and control all their assets)
• force place them in rehab (wouldn't that be fun?!?!?!?)
• continue to reason unsuccessfully with them

Unfortunately, none of these issues address the primary requisite of recovery from addiction...they have to see it as a problem and want to quit...:(:( and they don't see it as a problem or want to quit...:(:(

I know from prior work with Teen Challenge that the addicted is usually OK with their plight...it's the family who has to deal with all the effects of the addiction...and that's where we are...dealing with it while they don't give a darn...

There's a lot of insightful and experienced folks here...So, how do you entice 80 year olds to want to stop drinking??? Simply telling them the impact it has on us is not working...

Sincerely,
The Sleepless Silvers

Mr. Silver and Silver family,

I have spent my whole life dealing with people with addiction. Two of the four kids in my family were addicts. I say were because their addictions ultimately claimed their lives. Too early.

I am no expert by any means, not in the professional sense. I only have first hand expereince. Baptism by fire so to speak.

So this is my advice. They will not stop unless they want to or have hit their absolute rock bottom. Go behind their backs and do what you have to do to protect them and keep yourselves sane.

Tough advice, but you can't do it for them. I have been there and tried that...

Good luck and I will keep you in my thoughts.

Ruth

Ruth, thanks.

In your opinion, how effective would/could it be if:

• I force-place them in detox (dad was detoxed after a three month nursing home stay last year but then started drinking again upon discharge)
• absolutely restrict access to cash for purchases

Will the removal of the physical craving post-detox alleviate the mental craving???

At the core is a problem...I'm the kid being the parent...and they are "old enough" to make their own decisions (unless I get them declared unfit)

Mr. Silver - I too am not a professional but among the baptism by fire crowd.

You already know the bottom line - you can't make them stop drinking. Period. By restricting their amounts, diluting their alcohol, etc. all you're doing is enabling them. This, in my opinion, is doing more harm to you personally and your relationship with your parents.

What I would suggest is to bring this information to the attention of their doctors and seek professional guidance. If someone at the facility is providing alcohol that needs to be addressed for a multitude of reasons.

This may sound a bit cold, but it's not your responsibility to make them stop drinking, even as much as you may want too. That is a part of the sickness of alcoholism. If you haven't already done so, you may want to join Al-Anon. I credit them with saving my life and sanity as I got very caught up with feeling responsible for the fact that my ex was drinking and destroying our lives. It was eye opening the extent that I was responsibile for, but it in no way was for how and why he was drinking.

You are an intelligent and compassionate man. Take care of yourself and Silver family first and foremost. Let the professionals guide you with the decisions to be made reguarding your parents. Alcoholism is a family disease and it's effects are far reaching.

Best of luck to you!

if they're not driving, i say let them have their booze. they are adults
and they are only endangering themselves. Don't reason with them,
that's a waste of time. you could sure limit their alcohol, but you could
kill them by taking it completely away.

you need to go to Alanon. THEY will help you through this.

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Raleighdon aka Mr Mimitabby used to be an alcoholism counselor. he wanted me to add this:

Alcohol kills. It also destroys lives. Not just for those that are drinking, but for those around them.
That said, mom and dad are in their 80's and unless their alcohol "ism" is causing major impact
on either their activities or causing them or others physical harm, at this point in their life, treatment
may have very limited benefit. As mimitabby said the true beneficiary would be the family around them
who can best be served by something like Alanon


there is, however, great hope if mom and dad can be helped to either significantly reduce or completely
quit drinking. when someone is in their 80's however, simply removing their alcohol will not change a lifetime
of alcoholic behavior.. what i found as an alcoholism treatment professional was that in order to help create meaningful difference in peoples' lives it was critical that we involve our older patients with others in their peer group which is very difficult because
their peer group is diminishing so rapidly.

Particularly problematic in a situation when both mom and dad are both abusing, if one is able to quit drinking and the other
not, an incredible amount of sabotage can and often does occur. The alcohol itself is not as much the problem but rather, a symptom of some much greater underlying problems more than likely having to do with things unresolved in their lives. Are you prepared, at this juncture in your parents' lives to not just take their alcohol away, but deal with all the other life issues that are behind that mask? If not, you are creating more problems for both them and yourself than you are helping to avoid.
If mom and dad quit drinking today, with medically supervised detox and treatment you may add a little bit of quality to their remaining years but unless you and they deal with the other problems, the only outcome is a lot of pain and misery for all concerned.

Dude,
I have no sage advice, I can only wish you luck & strength. I can only imagince how tough that is to deal with.

Just a quick aside: Mr. Silver, does your mom have celiac? (or is that Silver's mom?) Alcohol hits celiacs a lot harder. You might want to ask the doc about that when you get the chance.

Dar - very good point about how if someone at the facility is providing alcohol to residents it needs to be addressed pronto.

RD - wise post.

I feel for you both. Alcoholism runs deep in my side of the family.

This comes from a Social Worker perspective and also from experiences with Flybyebrother.

Have you tried an intervention? I don't want to go into a lengthy explanation if you know what one is, so I will just give the shorthand version:

The family has to meet without the grandparents first and decide what they want the outcome of the meeting to be and write up the specifics. For example - you both need to go to treatment or if you don't quit finding alcohol, we will limit your income. This is also the time that you decide what two or three things that you want to share with your parents when you meet with them and the family.

Basically, when they are sober, you and your wife and children, possibly their nurse, and anyone else in the family who is affected by their alcoholism agree to meet together and confront the issue which right now is really their drinking and how it affects their relationship with the family.


Then all of the members of the family meet with the grandparents.

Each person can share very specific times that grandma or grandpa's drinking let them down----
For the kids perhaps a missed sporting event, a holiday where they were so drunk that they made an a$$ out of themselves, etc.
For Mr. and Mrs. perhaps the legacy that they are leaving behind for the family - do they really want to be remembered as alcoholics? Do they want their children and grandchildren to see them die with dignity or from problems related to alcoholism?
Also - the tough situation that they put you both in by putting you in a situation where you are now playing the parent - you'd need to tell them specifically why you don't like this - don't hide emotions through any of this. Also, the decision that you have to limit their finances - share with them how you don't want to have that burden placed on you right now and how you don't want to have their final years with you spent with them being angry for limiting their income because of poor decisions that they are making.
Share with them that you are angry, frustrated, disappointed, ashamed, hurt, etc. Don't hide anything.
For the nurse - perhaps how their alcoholism puts him in a tough spot because he cares for them yet he can see what they do to themselves despite the good care that he gives.

There are key things involved in the intervention - you need a spokesman who shares with the grandparents the reason that everyone is gathered (love for them), that they aren't allowed to leave while the meeting is in session, and that they must hear each person speak without interrupting.

They then have an opportunity to respond to what you have said.

At the end of it all, you lay out specifics, which the family has to agreed to before the meeting -
treatment, money issues, etc.

They don't have to agree to anything right away, they need to have time to digest what everyone has said to them and form a bond with one another. They do need a specific time that they will give you an answer - for example the next day at a specific time - and again, the whole family should be there.

This is a highly emotional process that is emotionally exhausting. But, it works pretty well.

There are some great books on interventions available and I will see if I can link you to some here in a bit. Maybe amazon? Google drug and alcohol intervention?

Essentially, though, you are giving them a reason for wanting to quit - which is for all of you, not for them. It does become a reason for them later in the process.

We did an intervention with my brother and it worked. He was using cocaine and destroying his life. He got treatment and gradually started making changes in his life. It isn't always foolproof, however.

There may also be other older people at the senior citizen center in you area that have been though the process of making changes in their own lives and who can be a positive support for them.

The number one and number two things that affect the elderly are loneliness and depression. The senior center would help with at least the loneliness.

Hope that helps a bit. You can pm or email questions about this process to me and I will see if I can help out more.

Sorry that you are going through this.

Another thought - they really could live another 15 years. We never know. I wouldn't write it all off because of their age. Two years of meaningful sobriety is worth it, in my opinion.

Thoughts and Prayers,
Flybye

I quit drinking 29 years ago when a social worker told me that if I was found drunk again, I would lose my kids. I've had 1 glass of wine since that day. I can tell you that the craving never goes away, just slowly gets less intense. There are still days when I see booze billboards and feel like driving right into them. The craving is as real as hunger or thirst or feeling sleepy. You can't will it away, but you can do things to reduce it to a managable level, the equivalent of sucking on a hard candy or ice-cube, or sipping coffee. It is an ongoing life change that requires a lot of motivation, goals, and desire that has to come from within, as well as support from family. (By the way, I got sober before my Dad did.)

I would also urge you to go to Al-Anon to help you deal with the issues alcoholism in the family raise. I would also suggest that at your parent's age you have to accept that it is not a time of goal setting and changing. They have accepted that their goal is to drink themselves into the grave. You need to let go of the "saving them from themselves" attitude, and accept that you can only make sure that you are keeping them as safe as possible. Since they are in assisted living, you have gone about as far as you can with that. The only other thing you can do is to go the the manager of the facility and ask them to remind the employees that providing unauthorized alcohol to an alcoholic resident is unethical, a violation of their responsibility to help protect the resident; and if discovered probably grounds for dismissal.

Please go to Al-Anon for the support you need in understanding that loving your parents doesn't mean you are responsible for their failings. I'll be holding both of you, and your parents, in the light.

http://www.amazon.com/Training-Famil...9029497&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Intervention-H..._sim_b_title_1

Either of these books might work. The second one has reviews but I didn't see any on the first book.

Ohh silver family! The crosses you have had to bear this year are many! I so hope that 2008 is a better year for you.
I didn't read through all the responses, but I think Mimi's post was spot on.
At their age change isnt very likely. :(
I'd say just do the best you can, try to find out WHO the supplier is. - I'd be ALL over that facility!!
I'm sure you are tho!
Sigh.... I feel for you. My dad is an alcoholic, and his drinking angers me so that it makes me shake!
Best of luck, and we are all praying for you (well the entire silver family)

denise :o

Mr Silver-

I know from family experience you can't make someone stop drinking and face their issues until they are willing to do so. They have to want it. Talk to their health care team for they may have some sound advise to give. You most certainly can and should express your concerns to your parents but again they have to want to stop drinking and until they make that decision all you can do is continue to support them and love them.

Hi there Silver family

This post comes with a disclaimer as I am about to play "Devil's Advocate".

I have had alcoholics in my life and my "fifth son" was staying with us when his alcoholic mother drank herself to death in front of two of his brothers. I know the evils and the dangers and the pain this addiction causes.

Disclaimer: My post below:
- in no way wishes to endorse alcoholism as an acceptable life-style
- does not negate the hurt and anguish felt by the families of alcoholics
- does not try to endorse "feeding" a habit as a way of dealing with alcoholics


Mr Silver, I understand the desire to have your family healthy and with you as long as possible... but you say your parents are in their 80s... will getting them off alcohol seriously prolong their lives or enhance their quality of life? Their bodies and minds are used to this now and surely it is kinder to allow them to have a little of what they crave as they near the end of their lives, than to try to eliminate the addiction and have them craving (with all the attendant side-effects) something they cannot have and perhaps even resenting those around them who are depriving them.

By this, I do not mean allow them to become rolling drunk, but do comsider allowing them their drink. They are in their 80s - they have earned the right to choose how they see out the end of their days... they know the consequences of drinking... including disappointing and possibly estranging their families... including injuring themselves...

Here is an example (using nicoteine) of what I am trying to say - its the story of a dear friend of our family, a man to me whom had always seemed ancient and just stayed that way from the time my memories begin until my 20s when he died...

He had always been a heavy smoker, and was told in his 80s that he would die within 18months. His wife was desparate for him to give up, just to get a few months longer... so he tried. He got irritable and mean and very very sick. He went to the doctor, and the doctor told him to keep smoking. The doctor said the withdrawal would kill him much quicker than smoking would at this point in his life. The doctor said "you enjoy smoking, so take back your quality of life and enjoy the last year or so with your wife". So our friend took up smoking again, and was the kind gentle man he had always been and travelled with his wife and lasted nearly two years.

I don't know how helpful or unhelpful this post is to you... and if we were talking about younger people then I would absolutely endorse the family and health professionals helping the "habit-kicking".

But these people are in their 80s and this is their choice and severe or total restrictions will change their quality of life and that should be considered also.

I don't have the answer and am only providing a different persepctive from those in this thread.
The woman I first mention in this post had no right to kill herself the way she did but ultimately that was her choice as an addict. But she was not yet 40. I can only reiterate that despite the previous couple of paragraphs, I do understand the evils of alcohol and the anger and pain and grieving that accompanies watching a person close to you drink to excess.

I wish you, Silver family, the easiest path through this thorny patch of your lives. Choices we make for our parents seem to be harder in some ways, than the ones we make for our children.
Arohanui
Raven

Mr. Silver,
You have gotten a lot of good caring advice. I have been thinking about you all day. I hope you find the answer that is best for your family.

Silvers,
I read your letter, then skipped to the bottom without reading more,to post this, so probably you've heard it before. You're not the only ones to deal with ancient addicts. (If this were not so serious I would try to make a joke out of a new branch of AA for Ancient Addicts).
My darling husband's mother passed away last year at 96, still addicted to the tranquilizers that no one (that is her new doctor, after we understood that the old one was just writing perscriptions to get her out of his office) could get her unhooked from.
Last week the nurse in my doctor's office (she and I shared the same doc) told me that her mother in law was an alcoholic in her 80's. I guess the medical care is so good these days that they can last a long time, too.

My advice to her and to you is to learn about AlAnon, so you can protect yourself and them without wearing yourself out. My prayers are with you.

It's never easy dealing with addiction in the family. Working with addicts I get to witness the pain and frustration of loved ones trying to understand why someone will not "just stop" something that is detrimental to their health/wellbeing. Having alcoholics in my family brings it home all the more. Some things stood out from the posts:

Not all addicted individuals are "ok" with their plight. Some feel downright awful about it but feel helpless/hopeless or downright scared to change. But you're right, they have to want to make the changes necessary.

The suggestion of attending Al-Anon meetings is a good one. It can be helpful in dealing with the emotions of coping with alcoholic family members. You could force them into rehab but at what emotional/relationship cost to them and among the family? There is no guarantee that they wouldn't go back to their old drinking patterns once discharged.

Are their physicians aware of their drinking habits? At 80 their metabolisms are not going to handle alcohol consumption as it did in the past. Alcohol with remain in their systems longer. What types of medications are they on normally? Medication function is also impacted by alcohol use. A previous poster asked about celiac. Good question. Also, is either one diabetic? As has been pointed out in other posts, just stopping drinking for them (any alcoholic actually) can be dangerous. Seizures are a problem for alcoholics (actively drinking and detoxing which is why alcohol detox needs to be medically supervised.)

I'd also be curious as to how long the AL facility would be on board with "administering" alcohol. They may look at her recent fall & BAL as a liability for them (I know of someone who was asked to remove a loved one from an AL facility for similar reasons.)

Good luck with this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by carpaltunnel

I guess the medical care is so good these days that they can last a long time, too.

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My understanding from a friend who's been in recovery a long time is ultimately many alchoholics lives end from malnutrition. It's empty calories after all and the addict drinks, feels full, doesn't eat. On the street some die of starvation though to look at them that is not the case but internally, starving.

Silvers, I'm sorry this is happening, I know others here have said this more articulately than me: Alanon is an amazing fellowship of friends and family. Sometimes that's all you can do, change yourself and maybe the addict will follow.

Meanwhile I'd find the source at the facility. I'd hate to be him or her when you do.

Wonderful Feedback. Thanks! Here are some answers and the rest of the story...

• Yes, Mom is celiac and this exacerabates the problem...
• The doctors are involved and agree that "a couple of drinks a day" is manageable
• the 'source' is not an employee of the facility, and someone currently unknown to us (although I got a couple of suspects out of bed at 3AM this morning:eek:)

While understanding that no one was endorsing drinking, I understand that to restrict their access is harsh and possibly impossible. The issue:

• their care is currently costing about $8,000/mo. If they're kicked out of the facility, there are limited affordable options with the next level being private care costing about $20,000/mo. It can be done, but not forever.
• alternatively, they could drink themselves into a nursing home (which medicare would ironically cover) but this would be very bleak...and I guess I'm compelled to protect them from that outcome (even if that's what it takes for them to hit bottom...)

In our visit today:

• Mom was VERY sore and seemed to have regret over what happened (despite limited recollection)
• She's "promising" that if we'll just let her have her 6 oz....she'll live up to her "promise" THIS TIME...
• I've reminded her that her word has little meaning when she continues to lie and then break her promises
• I've told her that we'll only consider allowing continued access IF she accepts our requirement that she get counseling starting this week

So, I'm accepting that we will not mandate a change of attitude and that I can't restrict an adults will...but I'm hoping that a counselor will expand her selfish perspective and help her see the implications of her choices.

but I did get as far as this one and I could not have said it better:

Quote:

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Mr. Silver - I too am not a professional but among the baptism by fire crowd.

You already know the bottom line - you can't make them stop drinking. Period. By restricting their amounts, diluting their alcohol, etc. all you're doing is enabling them. This, in my opinion, is doing more harm to you personally and your relationship with your parents.

What I would suggest is to bring this information to the attention of their doctors and seek professional guidance. If someone at the facility is providing alcohol that needs to be addressed for a multitude of reasons.

This may sound a bit cold, but it's not your responsibility to make them stop drinking, even as much as you may want too. That is a part of the sickness of alcoholism. If you haven't already done so, you may want to join Al-Anon. I credit them with saving my life and sanity as I got very caught up with feeling responsible for the fact that my ex was drinking and destroying our lives. It was eye opening the extent that I was responsibile for, but it in no way was for how and why he was drinking.

You are an intelligent and compassionate man. Take care of yourself and Silver family first and foremost. Let the professionals guide you with the decisions to be made reguarding your parents. Alcoholism is a family disease and it's effects are far reaching.

Best of luck to you!
__________________
Dar
_____________________________________________
“Handle every stressful situation like a dog - If you can't eat it or hump it, piss on it and walk away...."

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Word from the wise, never care more about another person's life than they do. It will consume you and take away from the life you are intended to enjoy and the joy you are intended to give to those you are responsible for ie; wife, children and pets.

While I shared the cost of their care...I don't want to convey a "poor me" attitude. My parents led a thrifty life and saved well, have GREAT insurance, and an adequate fixed income. I invest their money well...but I can't squeeze out $20,000/month;);)

I'm a BIG FAN of Long Term Care Insurance. It doesn't pay for everything, but it really takes the edge off...

I'm also a big fan of being active in retirement. I compare Silver's parents to mine...same age, but totally different physical shape. All because of activity.

My parents drink out of habit and BOREDOM...They sit in a chair, watch TV all day, get depressed about everything on TV that is wrong with the world...and drink.

I think that medicare or social security should provide a touring bicycle and helmet to everyone on their retirement day! Now, that would be government largesse well spent!

I wanted to elaborate on an issue that has been brought up.

Yes, they are elderly and very unlikely to change. So the attitude is what's the harm of letting them have their alcohol. Basically I would have that attitude and that is the attitude that the doctor has had....

but the context is so much more complicated than this. MIL has celiac and FIL has diabetes. FIL has dementia. The dementia is a result of longterm diabetes and alcohol abuse. The AL facility that they were in was OK with the regulated amount of alcohol each day. 6 ounces to each (served twice a day in three ounces).

But as FIL's dementia and overall condition decreases, his overall health is decreasing and he was not tolerating the alcohol. His blood sugar's were impossible to regulate. The supervisor of the nursing staff told us that they could not continue to provide nursing care to him (monitoring his blood sugar and insulin) as long as he was drinking. During this time, He's been in and out of the ER, ICU and now in the skilled nursing care. He's off alcohol and detoxed and doing quite well actually. But still wants his drink when he gets back to the AL. The Nursing staff told us they would NOT take him back if he was drinking any alcohol.

MIL was doing OK with the 6 ounces/day. AL was fine with that. But MIL was getting another source and would binge on that intermitantly. she did this last night. She fell and hurt herself. I fully expect that the ALF will contact us on Monday and tell us that they cannot continue to accept this liability.

This is the third time that I've taken her to the ER in this similar state. Over the last 2 years. Each time thinking that she could have had a stroke. The first time, she was drunk with a blood alcohol of .38. The second time it was actually a stroke.

If they actually took care of themselves.....I'd say go ahead, drink yourselves to death. But it's not that way. They need daily assistance for regular daily activities, like bathing and dressing. No facility is going to accept the liabiltiy of their drunken accidents. We cannot get nursing care to cover them when they are drunk.

Yes, I've enabled them. I've bought the alcohol. I established the limited drinking schedule. It worked when they adherred to that schedule. but they got more from another source and binge. (edit: on rereading this, I sound sarcastic and defensive, but honestly I'm not, this is just how it is and I'm at my wit's end, I'm really listening to what you all have to say, it helps)

so what do I do? Stop buying it? (I do not believe that MIL's detox would be that bad)

Oh, yet another thing, MIL's liver is failing. She does OK with a limited amount of alcohol, but when she drinks more that the 6 ounces her liver enzymes increase.

sooooooo complicated.

but thank you all so much for discussing this with us. it so helps to see all the perspectives and viewpoints and ideas. Please keep up the info. I'm still digesting it.

What a tough, tough situation. My mother is an alcoholic. One of my brothers is one-year sober. I hope none of this is in my future.

I also hope you can find a way through it with minimal damage to your relationships and your conscience.

Karen

opinion, like a second opinion.

But when I read this:

Quote:

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so what do I do? Stop buying it? (I do not believe that MIL's detox would be that bad)

Oh, yet another thing, MIL's liver is failing. She does OK with a limited amount of alcohol, but when she drinks more that the 6 ounces her liver enzymes increase.

sooooooo complicated.

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If you are the supplier, quit! It's really not that complicated and sure they will be upset for a while but maybe that's the time you need to really distance yourself from the situation quit supplying them with it and go to Al-anon for support.

Unless I misunderstand the situation if they are in a care facility let the trained people deal with them and get them through detox that is what they are for is to care for them right?

It's really not that complicated, remove yourself from the equation and they won't have the alcohol and you won't have to hear them complain. Sounds simple to me.

Good luck and keep life simple it's really not that hard.

lots of good advice, I'll ditto some and add some more.

Al-Anon. This is the sister program to AA, but it is for friends, families and loved ones of alcoholics. It won't give you the magic bullet to make them quit, but you can gain tools to live a better life regardless of what they are doing.

2. You didn't cause it, you can't cure it, and you certainly can't control it.

3. Al-anon.

4. buying booze for an alcoholic is being an enabler. If you quit doing it, and they really want it, they will find another way to get it.

Quote:

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but they got more from another source and binge.

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It doesn't matter what you do, they will do what they want/need to do, and it is out of your control. The sad thing is, if they choose to drink themselves to death, yes, its horrible to watch and let it happen, but sometimes that's the way these things go.

When my dad broke his leg (drunk fall) and couldn't 'drive, he used to walk two miles each way to the 7-11 in a walking cast to buy his booze. The point is, if a drunk wants to drink, they will figure out how to do it.


http://www.al-anonfamilygroups.org/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Silver

Wonderful Feedback. Thanks! Here are some answers and the rest of the story...

• Yes, Mom is celiac and this exacerabates the problem...
• The doctors are involved and agree that "a couple of drinks a day" is manageable
• the 'source' is not an employee of the facility, and someone currently unknown to us (although I got a couple of suspects out of bed at 3AM this morning:eek:)

While understanding that no one was endorsing drinking, I understand that to restrict their access is harsh and possibly impossible. The issue:

• their care is currently costing about $8,000/mo. If they're kicked out of the facility, there are limited affordable options with the next level being private care costing about $20,000/mo. It can be done, but not forever.
• alternatively, they could drink themselves into a nursing home (which medicare would ironically cover) but this would be very bleak...and I guess I'm compelled to protect them from that outcome (even if that's what it takes for them to hit bottom...)

In our visit today:

• Mom was VERY sore and seemed to have regret over what happened (despite limited recollection)
• She's "promising" that if we'll just let her have her 6 oz....she'll live up to her "promise" THIS TIME...
• I've reminded her that her word has little meaning when she continues to lie and then break her promises
• I've told her that we'll only consider allowing continued access IF she accepts our requirement that she get counseling starting this week

So, I'm accepting that we will not mandate a change of attitude and that I can't restrict an adults will...but I'm hoping that a counselor will expand her selfish perspective and help her see the implications of her choices.

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this is sad to read because it is so typical of the family dynamic of the FAMILY DISEASE OF ALCOHOLISM. Promises, deals, negotiations.... ultimately it's all BS unless the alcoholic them self decides that they are ready to quit.

Re - intervention. This is not a do it yourself project that you set up with the help of some self help books. Bring in a professional trained to manage these kinds of situations.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Irulan

this is sad to read because it is so typical of the family dynamic of the FAMILY DISEASE OF ALCOHOLISM. Promises, deals, negotiations.... ultimately it's all BS unless the alcoholic them self decides that they are ready to quit.

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I thought the same thing. alcoholics will say whatever they have to to make you leave them alone so they can start drinking again. Addicts lie.

Wow... with all those extra details like medical complications - and health costs/insurance issues which are so different to how things work in this country...

Thank you for both understanding where my post was coming from - I have been bothered it might be interpreted the wrong way...

Well... I am pleased for your parents, Mr Silver, that they have you as a son who is being so measured and caring in your response to treating/dealing with this whole uncomfortable situation.

My thoughts are with you and Silver as you work your way through this situation and completely admire you both for wanting to keep them in a comfortable place - rather than a grotty retirement home.

I hope the culprit who is sneaking the extra booze in is thwarted and your parents are able to continue living out their days in a place where you all feel better about it.

Sadly here in NZ, we have developed a culture of popping our elders into a home as soon as they become a "nuisance" and then conveniently forget them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bikerchic

opinion, like a second opinion.

But when I read this:



If you are the supplier, quit! It's really not that complicated and sure they will be upset for a while but maybe that's the time you need to really distance yourself from the situation quit supplying them with it and go to Al-anon for support.

Unless I misunderstand the situation if they are in a care facility let the trained people deal with them and get them through detox that is what they are for is to care for them right?

It's really not that complicated, remove yourself from the equation and they won't have the alcohol and you won't have to hear them complain. Sounds simple to me.

Good luck and keep life simple it's really not that hard.

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Assisted living is not a hospital, just a place where they provide some help with activities of daily living like dressing, bathing, or taking meds. Assisted living cannot provide the kind of medical care needed for safe detox, and it sounds like they would have significant medical withdrawal symptoms if all alcohol was suddenly removed. I think it is not that simple.

Silver, I don't think you sound sarcastic or defensive, just understandably tired and frustrated and sad and worried. It may be that they will not be able to stay in assisted living because of this issue. All I would say is, consult a physician if you expect they will be experiencing complete withdrawal of alcohol since it may be medically dangerous.

Interesting issue you have there.

I have a feeling I'm going to be there in the next 10-15 years if my Dad lives that long.

My Dad was an alcoholic and then he sobered up... when I was around 8/10 years old (I didn't live with him when he was a drunk). He stayed sober until I was 32 years old. I am now 35.

It was then that he retired and decided to sell the house (he and my stepmom got divorced)... and buy an RV to live. He also decided to start drinking again. Yep. A home on wheels AND drinking. Luckily he parks it at an RV park 90% of the year.

I have had to come to terms with the fact that he's going to kill himself with booze. There's no way a 63 year old man can drink from sun up to sun down... and live to be a ripe old age.

If he does live to be as old as you parents... I'm not sure what I'll do when he's falling down and ending up in the hospital because he's drunk and hurt himself.

Unfortunately, because they are causing phsyical harm to themselves that requires medical attention... you are going to have to get tough about them not drinking. If they were like my Dad... maintaining themselves and being drunk... I'd say leave them alone... but you can't do that.

Good luck and try to make their remaining days happy ones... as best you can... by finding a balance for everyone involved.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silver

I wanted to elaborate on an issue that has been brought up.

Yes, they are elderly and very unlikely to change. So the attitude is what's the harm of letting them have their alcohol. Basically I would have that attitude and that is the attitude that the doctor has had....

but the context is so much more complicated than this. MIL has celiac and FIL has diabetes. FIL has dementia. The dementia is a result of longterm diabetes and alcohol abuse. The AL facility that they were in was OK with the regulated amount of alcohol each day. 6 ounces to each (served twice a day in three ounces).

But as FIL's dementia and overall condition decreases, his overall health is decreasing and he was not tolerating the alcohol. His blood sugar's were impossible to regulate. The supervisor of the nursing staff told us that they could not continue to provide nursing care to him (monitoring his blood sugar and insulin) as long as he was drinking. During this time, He's been in and out of the ER, ICU and now in the skilled nursing care. He's off alcohol and detoxed and doing quite well actually. But still wants his drink when he gets back to the AL. The Nursing staff told us they would NOT take him back if he was drinking any alcohol.

MIL was doing OK with the 6 ounces/day. AL was fine with that. But MIL was getting another source and would binge on that intermitantly. she did this last night. She fell and hurt herself. I fully expect that the ALF will contact us on Monday and tell us that they cannot continue to accept this liability.

This is the third time that I've taken her to the ER in this similar state. Over the last 2 years. Each time thinking that she could have had a stroke. The first time, she was drunk with a blood alcohol of .38. The second time it was actually a stroke.

If they actually took care of themselves.....I'd say go ahead, drink yourselves to death. But it's not that way. They need daily assistance for regular daily activities, like bathing and dressing. No facility is going to accept the liabiltiy of their drunken accidents. We cannot get nursing care to cover them when they are drunk.

Yes, I've enabled them. I've bought the alcohol. I established the limited drinking schedule. It worked when they adherred to that schedule. but they got more from another source and binge. (edit: on rereading this, I sound sarcastic and defensive, but honestly I'm not, this is just how it is and I'm at my wit's end, I'm really listening to what you all have to say, it helps)

so what do I do? Stop buying it? (I do not believe that MIL's detox would be that bad)

Oh, yet another thing, MIL's liver is failing. She does OK with a limited amount of alcohol, but when she drinks more that the 6 ounces her liver enzymes increase.

sooooooo complicated.

but thank you all so much for discussing this with us. it so helps to see all the perspectives and viewpoints and ideas. Please keep up the info. I'm still digesting it.

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Hey, you aren't being defensive.

It sounds like you and Mr. are doing your best to find a balance... and you found one... and it got unbalanced due to an inside supplier of alcohol.

My Grandmother was in a nice assisted living center... until she got so bad off phyiscally, they had to send her to a nursing home. Yes, it was horrible. She went there to die. And I know the two of you do not want to see them end up in a nursing home because they can't stop drinking.

The key here is that they can't take care of themselves. They are like teenagers... and as the care takers... you have to make sure they can live in a nice place and they can get taken care of. You also have to make sure they don't get kicked out.

Do what you have to do to keep them in assisted living. Hopefully they can give up the booze so they can continue living there.

Silver Family:

There is nothing harder than letting go when we want so badly to hang on and make everything better. The more we care, the harder it is to let go. I don't know how open you are to all the words of wisdom in these replies, but I hope that time will help you to see that you've already done all you can do.

People make their own decisions and it can be exceptionally hard to stand by when those decisions are self-destructive. But, that's what unconditional love and acceptance is. It is not a condoning of their behavior, or enabling. Rather, it is a recognition that you are the master of your own life and they are the masters of theirs. If you speak with an addiction specialist (which I hope you do, at some point - or take everyone's advice and check out an Al-Anon group) - you would see that no one and no single act can force sobriety. One must enter into sobriety, or any healthy lifestyle, on their own accord.

Try to think about other addictions: cigarettes or food, for example. If you take away someone's smokes, does it fix the problem? If you force someone to eat certain foods, does it deal with the real issue of their binging/overeating? No. One needs to be dedicated to stop smoking - or eating healthy, it can't be forced upon them. Or, think about something easier - more tangible - like deciding to make exercise a regular part of one's life. You can't force cycling or fitness onto anyone, right? Everyone has to take responsibility for their own lives and decide each day, each week, to get out there and put the time into staying healthy. With addiction, it is no different. The responsibility to change falls on the shoulders of the addict.

It is clear that your family is filled with love and wants nothing more than to care for your parents and see them well. But, if your parents aren't joining you in your efforts - you're setting yourself up for a great deal of pain...pain that no one in this forum wants to see you go through.

You can't control them. You can't convince them. And though they are aging, you are not responsible for their decisions. If they want to drink themselves to injury, that's their choice. If they want to make choices that result in being moved to a nursing home, it's their choices that got them there. All you can do is make sure they are cared for and safe - something you are doing a beautiful job of already. They will decide on a life of sobriety when they want it, if ever. Until then, all you can do is love them and take care of yourselves. There is nothing easy about the position you're in, but it is manageable - with the right resources.

I'm glad you came here for support and advice. I hope you continue to do so for as long as you need it. As for the advice, I have always believed we always know the answer to our own questions - deep inside. Advice is what we ask for when we know the answer, but don't want to admit it.

In time, the truth of how much (or how little) control you have in this will become more evident. As it does, and you grow to feel increasingly helpless - I hope you will put your energy into getting professional support for your family. You can't control your parents addiction, but you can control how you and your family handles it emotionally.

I wish you the best of luck with everything.

So beautifully said, Spinswebs.

Perfect crafted response, SW
Perfect

Silver family... kia kaha, kia manawanui

(Be strong, be of good heart - have faith in youselves)

Thanks to all!

Every post here has provided thoughtful insight and perspective.

I'm considerbly more encouraged at 3AM today than at 3AM yesterday...(why am I not in bed????)

I think that I'm resolved that I can't let them drink themselves into a nursing home. The badgering from them over restricted drinking is better than the begging we'd receive to get them out of such a bleak place as a nursing home. Don't misunderstand - nursing homes do their best at caring, but it is simply too bleak to imagine as an acceptable solution.

To All with Kids: Please resolve right now that you won't become the children in your kids' life...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Silver

I think that I'm resolved that I can't let them drink themselves into a nursing home. The badgering from them over restricted drinking is better than the begging we'd receive to get them out of such a bleak place as a nursing home. ...

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I think this is a wise move. To keep the relationships more intact, can you let the docs or medical staff be the bad guys. Tell them that because of what the alcohol is doing to their health, their doctors are refusing to continue care for them in this facility if they continue to drink. Then tell them you support the doctors on this because the alternatives (nursing home care) are both unacceptable and would also not allow alcohol. Explain that medical facilities cannot care for patients with liver disease and diabetes that consume alcohol, its as simple as that. Its also the truth.

i have a 94 year old father in a similar situation. not easy.

side note: In response to your aside about nursing homes and Medicare, typically Medicare does NOT pay for long term nursing home care. Usually the elder must "spend down" their assets until they qualify for Medicaid.

more from Mr Raleighdon who apologizes for butting in once again on a women's cycling forum:

alcoholism is one of the most destructive FAMILY diseases in our society. Unfortunately it isn't just the alcoholic that suffers from the disease and it is not only the alcoholic that lives in a state of denial. While family members don't cause the disease (i.e., it ain't their fault), neither do the alcoholics, themselves. None of us can control this disease, and yet we spend countless hours, days weeks, months and years of our lives attempting to do just that. "If I could just get mom or dad to cut down..." "If we could just....." Well, I can't, you can't and we can't. And the more we try, the sicker we become and at the same time, so does the alcoholic.

The bottom of every hole is that point at which someone throws down their shovel and stops digging. And it isn't just the alcoholic who needs to come to a point of surrender into a recovery process. For family members affected by this disease, the impact of years of the disease is a denial system that is every bit as well ingrained as that of the alcoholic, and must be broken through if there is any hope for recovery. The alcoholic may or may not get sober. That is a choice that they, and only they, can make. A great deal of assistance can be rendered in a lot of ways to help them get there, but unfortunately, a family member who is just as sick as them is not the person to render that assistance with love, respect, non-judmental decision making and dignity. If mom and/or dad are faced with assisted living, there are innumerable community services available that can give a lot of help, but as long as the adult children of alcholics think they can control mom and dad, the problem will continue to become worse not betterr.

I've often wondered why a man would spend so much of his energy surrounding himself with women in a site like Team Estrogen, and Mimitabby shares posts with me sometimes, seeking my thoughts on various issues. It astounds me that a purported well educated and balanced man would come to a women's bicycling group about his mom and dad's alcoholism. It just seems to me that this is about control and attention getting, both which are well defined and clearly identifiable symptoms of a highly evolved and advanced state of denial about ones' own problem. Don't bother to focus on the REAL PROBLEM, which is your own life, your own fears, your own self-doubt, your own low self esteem, your own losses, but deflect all of that outward, attempt to get others to endorse your bull$&#%) and fish for answers you can pick apart, re-work until they seem to agree with your own desires which are clouded with diseased thinking and find that one person out of twenty who will say, "Oh you poor thing. How hard it must be for you." and lock in on that sympathy.

Alcoholics and adult children of alcoholics neither deserve nor need pity. They already have enough of that themselves. All that self-pity is keeping them sick. What they need is a hand up, and good, professional help, support from their own community and to be treated with dignity and respect. Sometimes, that dignity and respect may mean making some tough choices, like saying goodbye. Respecting someone enough to quit endorsing their behavior. Respecting someone enough to allow them to live with the consequences of the life of bad decisions they have made. Respecting someone enough to say to them, I'm very sorry you feel that way, but I disagree and can't accept the guilt, shame and blame that you are trying to put on me."

Ánd as Forrest Gump might add, That's all I have to say about that.

OK, I'm going to chime in here, despite the fact that I have no experience with alcoholism. In fact, I am only going to address the question Mr. Mimi posed: Why would a man ask advice on this topic from the women on TE?

I think (and I may be presumptive here), Mr. Silver asked because we are a community and he feels like he belongs to this community. We might disagree as to the answers to this problem, which is a tough one. But, I think that Mr. S is just reaching out for advice. It's not weird and I could see my husband doing the same thing. Not all men are the same.

Robyn

I am gonna chime in with Robyn here. No disrespect meant to Mimi, but what I think Raleighdon doesn't get is that our community is unique, in part cuz we are mostly women, but that gender is not a requirement for participation. I think he is making a lot of assumptions about Mr. Silver's participation here that frankly aren't true. There are many kinds of people out there. I belong to bike journal to track my miles, and even though it is a mixed gender forum (so I officially 'belong'), I only tend to read the posts on the days that TE is down. Now, based on what I read last week I could read all kinds of things into that silly banter between Raleighdon and Pansypalmetto, but I won't cuz I know that banter suits a particular personality, just as our banter here suits a different personality. But I would never be so presumptuous as to read the kinds of things that Raleighdon is reading into Mr. Silver's posts.

With that being said, I do believe that Raleighdon's suggestion to get professional counseling on this one is a good one. I think Mr. Silver posted here cuz he couldn't sleep and he (and silver) needed a place to vent which is entirely appropriate within our community.

WOW! I just read a part of one of the posts above and I have to say.... Can we all take a step back and count to ten??

I have nothing to add, but my support for the Silver family. Over the last few months I feel like I've gotten to know them, and I really feel for what they are going through right now.

Being a part of both a triathlon and this online forum for the last few years, I have encountered many view points. I've always tried to respect everyones right as an individual to believe what they want, even if I don't.
And over the years I have come across a few who I have thought that I would really like to meet someday. The silver family is on that list.
So again, nothing to add but my support and prayers.