Ladies, women, girls....

This topic came up the other day as we were watching the IM Canada. DH kept referring to the women racers as "ladies" as in "that lady is running strong" or "I like that lady's bike" etc. I told him I much preferred the word "woman" instead of "lady", particularly since we were talking about female athletes, most of whom were in their 20-40's. In my mind, the word lady conjures up high heels, nylons and a dress to me. Somehow it sounds a little condescending in this context.

I know he does not mean it disrespectfully, in fact, I'm quite certain that in his mind, he's trying to sound very respectful, but for some reason, it bugs me.

Is it just me? What you prefer to be called in that situation? I told him I was going to ask you "women" and see what kind of feedback I got.

Thanks,

The very unladylike, kelownagirl

Yup. Woman. People (esp. men) seem a lot more scared of that word than the word man.

Should add that I don't think ppl who use the term mean to be disrespectful...just that they seem to be tiptoeing around something.

Well, I don't consider myself lady-like at all but it doesn't bother me to be called a lady.

Having said that, I would typically refer to a female athlete as a woman, not a lady. Somehow lady just seems a little weird to me.

It's situational.
In this case the use of "lady' seems odd.
I prefer to be a woman.

Language is important, it conveys preconceptions and cements them as well, so it does matter what you call people. I make a point out of using "woman" as much as possible, even though i Norwegian almost everyone uses "lady" to describe a woman in general. In general, I am a woman, not a girl or a lady, which imply certain characteristics.

Being a girl either means you're young(er) or implies familiarity. Somebody who doesn't know me has no business calling me a girl. Being a lady is the female equivalent of a gentleman, and implies sophistication, elegance, fine clothes and good manners. In a athletic setting that's just absurd.

In case you couldn't tell, this is one of my pet peeves :D

It peeves me when I hear "ladies" and "men"
They are not a match

If you are not going to call something a "gentleman's race", then don't call us "ladies".

It should be women and men, its simple, its honest and carries no preconceptions or possible offence...

Oh... and I managed to avoid "girls"

I must admit I refer to my colleagues as girls, and I don't mind it on commentary as long as the men are also being referred to as boys or lads...

This topic honestly has never crossed my mind. I'm in Georgia & I would like to think hsopitality is still alive. Guys open doors for gals, etc. Heck my 9 y/o son even opens my car door for me. I was raised to show any elder respect by calling them sir or maam. When I entered the military and called a non-commisioned officer sir or maam, I got "dropped" & had to do push-ups. That was a hard habit for me to break. I guess my point is that it's a habit. Don't get hung up on it. I don't see it as derogatory in anyway.

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Originally Posted by RoadRaven

If you are not going to call something a "gentleman's race", then don't call us "ladies".

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That's exactly what I was thinking. I wonder if part of the problem is that we don't have a female match for the word "guy". If I'm watching a male race (or any male sport) I feel comfortable saying "Hey, that guy is so fast!"

If I substitute "man" for "guy", it feels very formal. (though I'm sure I could get used to it)

Is there a more casual word for "woman"? The only think I can think of is "chick" and that has negative connotations. (Admittedly, though, I sometimes use it...:o )

Maybe we can make one up!

Woman vote here for the reasons mentioned--lady has the same connotation as gentleman.

When people use lady, I'll turn around and use the word gentleman. Except to the southerner I worked with, that usually causes a few looks.

But more so, I'm known for eliminating gender, just as I eliminate race in initial descriptions. Drives people nuts, but, if you're referring to a persons work or actions, gender and race are not relevant.

But, related, do you cringe or accept the current usage of "guy" as a gender neutral address?

In the old days it was considered rather crude to call someone a "woman" unless it was meant in a bad way- implying that she was "no lady".
Many people of the past generation still automatically use "lady" rather than "woman" out of respect.

You know, the US is a big country full of people of all ages and regions and cultural backgrounds. Terms like lady, woman, Miss, Ma'am, etc are natural regional, generational, and cultural variations- perhaps we should not get too wrapped up in trying to get everyone to use the terms we prefer. I do agree that calling women "girls" is rather dated and at this point.
I lived in Puerto Rico for many years, where I learned to refer to a boy child using a certain term. I was talking to some Mexican women the other day in Spaish, and when I asked if one of them had just given birth to a girl or a boy, they looked at each other all shocked and then burst out laughing....what had I done??? Well apparently in Mexico one only uses that term to describe a male ANIMAL, never a person! So hard to be correct with everyone! Too funny.

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Originally Posted by lyca

That's exactly what I was thinking. I wonder if part of the problem is that we don't have a female match for the word "guy". If I'm watching a male race (or any male sport) I feel comfortable saying "Hey, that guy is so fast!"

If I substitute "man" for "guy", it feels very formal. (though I'm sure I could get used to it)

Is there a more casual word for "woman"? The only think I can think of is "chick" and that has negative connotations. (Admittedly, though, I sometimes use it...:o )

Maybe we can make one up!

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I agree. In fact I pointed out a few years back that from now on I was calling ALL my climbing friends "dudes" or "guys", male or female :p so it's kind of an in-joke. I like the friendly sound. Female friends sometimes say "hey, babe", but my male friends don't dare ;)

Actually I remember somebody here on this board commenting on the "cool chickie" on the logo at the top of the page, I thought that sounded neat.

I prefer "woman", although if the individual calling me a "lady" is either elderly or Southern (being aware of age or culture) I try to accept it gracefully.

Thorn - I don't accept "guys" as gender neutral...it makes me nuts when a waiter asks "what can I get you guys" to a table of women. Until it's neutral for them to go up to a table of males and ask "what can I get you gals"...I'll just stick with the gender neutral "folks".

For years, I was practically militant about this. I insisted on being called a woman by everyone in every situation and anyone who didn't comply got a lecture. Well, now that I'm in my enlightened mid-50s, I've relaxed a bit and realize that, as Zen said, it's situational. Older people and many southern men use "lady" as a term of respect, and that I can live with.

What still bugs me, though, is being called "girl." Many people just assume that I prefer to be thought of as younger than I am--which I don't. Guess you could say I'm on a personal mission to fight the perception that younger is better and we should all want to look and seem younger than we are. I can't stand that.

But I've noticed that my younger students have embraced "girl"--I'm talking about college freshmen. They have no problem being called girls, and no problem calling other women "girls," even those older than themselves. Sometimes we talk about this in class, but it seems like a losing battle. I just have to remind myself that language comes and goes, like fashion, and the pendulum will eventually swing back the other way.

I also think that many people, men and women both, avoid the term "woman" for whatever reason. They don't mind calling a man a man, but balk at calling a grown-up female a woman. That drives me crazy. I think this is where we get the widespread use of "lady," the continuing, maddening use of "girl," and even in some situations, "female." I noticed that last when I was in the navy--men were "men" but women were "females." I tried to put a stop to that, too, in my little sphere of influence. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr :mad:

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Originally Posted by Bad JuJu

But I've noticed that my younger students have embraced "girl"--I'm talking about college freshmen. They have no problem being called girls, and no problem calling other women "girls," even those older than themselves.

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I've noticed this, too. I work with a university Women's Glee Club as part of my assistantship and have found that they almost ALWAYS refer to each other as "girls". I think for them, and for many younger and college age women, it is a term of endearment...a bonding thing. They also embrace "women", but don't use that term as often when addressing each other.

In rehearsal situations, I almost always address the women in my groups (regardless of age...from grade school to my adult choir) and "ladies" and the men as "gentlemen". Of course, someone in the tenor section will usually raise his hand and ask if I want them to sing, too, since I only asked for the "gentlemen". :p

:(

Oh dear, I guess I've probably been offending everyone right and left. I call people dude (male AND female), chick, chickie, chickadee (from my mom), girl, girlie, lady, without thought. I never call them that in a derogatory way (why? is it derogatory? I guess I just placed more emphasis on how a thing was said than what was said).

I mean, heck, if I'm going to try to insult someone by using a name, I'm gonna use one a lot more powerful than lady....

Now, it does bug me when men refer to women as girls sometimes (and I clarify this with sometimes, because I don't mind if The Boy asks me if I'm hanging out with 'the girls'... woops there I go, referring to a Man as a Boy). When a man uses the word girl dismissively it's got a completely different feel to it.

I apologize to everyone in this forum I've said 'you go girl' to! :o

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Originally Posted by Kimmyt

I guess I just placed more emphasis on how a thing was said than what was said.

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I do think it has a lot to do with context and culture. Personally, I wouldn't call someone I didn't know very well by any diminutive (nickname, variation of 'girl', whatever) but in my own personal circle I call my friends by many names.

And yeah, I seem to recall shouting "you go girl!" to my TV screen during movies...sporting events...speeches...the evening news...:D I'm pretty sure that someone, somewhere, coined that phrase and it has become part of our modern verbal heritage, so to speak. Kind of like a cliche...something that everyone recognizes...I could be wrong, though.

I think it's situational. Most groups of women refer to themselves as 'girls' in social situations. We Southerners use lady rather interchangably.

Several years ago a group of us girls were on the gulf and took a morning fishing trip. The captain referred to us as girls and then quickly back-pedaled, not wishing to offend. I laughed and told him we were old enough to appreciate being called girls since we really weren't anymore.

I definitely prefer "women", and cringe if someone says "ladies". I grew up with a mother telling me to "be lady-like" and to "walk like a lady" and those things just never fit me. To me, a lady is a stereotype that I have no interest in emulating and couldn't if I tried. But as others have said, it's often situational or cultural, so I usually just let it roll off me.

I think that the use of women vs girls in many cases really implies an underlying attitude. When I was in college on the east coast in the 70s, female students were universally referred to by administration/faculty/peers as women and treated as adults. Where my sister went to college in the midwest, they were referred to as girls and treated more like children in need of supervision/protection.

Well, I guess I'm with Kimmy and am very good at using the wrong words inadvertently. In the situation KG described, I would probably have used the word girl more than anything. I can picture myself shouting encouragement in the form of go, girl, go. But when talking about them, I would more likely be saying "look at her go" "she looks strong" "she's reeling him in" "isn't she in the lead?" etc. Yes, it seems I use more pronouns than nouns. Perhaps I am instinctively avoiding the whole dilemma of woman vs lady, neither of which I like the sounds of. Oh, yes, I have definitely been known to use the words, chick, dudette, chica and babe to describe women, specifically athletes that I see or know, but generally I keep these terms close - talking with DH, or close girlfriends.

Hugs and butterflies,
~T~

From the old-school Southern male perspective, I was taught, and still believe that all adult females are to be considered "ladies" until their behavior clearly demonstrates otherwise. And even then, you give them the benefit of doubt.

Foreign languages have their own nuances, too... I remember that in German, the proper reference is Frau (plural Frauen) or Fraulein, occasionally Dame or Damen (plural). (hint, the feminine restroom is labelled Damen, good for a joke or two with the new guys who can't tell the difference betwen "da Men" and "Herren" (which is how the little boys' room is labeled, btw.) but that's a whole 'nother story.) Using the term for female, weib, or weibliche, is considered derogatory in polite circles, and is usually refereing to livestock.

But then again in gender non-specific circles, I confess that I'm one of those who typically refers to everyone as "guys," regardless of age or gender.

Tom

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Originally Posted by RoadRaven

It peeves me when I hear "ladies" and "men"
They are not a match. If you are not going to call something a "gentleman's race", then don't call us "ladies".

It should be women and men, its simple, its honest and carries no preconceptions or possible offence...

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Yep.

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Originally Posted by PscyclePath

From the old-school Southern male perspective, I was taught, and still believe that all adult females are to be considered "ladies" until their behavior clearly demonstrates otherwise. And even then, you give them the benefit of doubt.

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Great, as long as men are always considered and called gentlemen until their behavior clearly demonstrates otherwise, and even then they are given the benefit of the doubt, and the STANDARDS for judging who is a gentlemen and who is a lady are EXACTLY THE SAME. In my experience, this isn't what happens out there.

And then, I also agree with everyone who writes about all the context stuff that happens when women are together in more intimate groups...friends, obviously relaxed social situations, etc. I guess I go both ways. Do I care if a woman I'm cycling with screams You Go Girl at me? No! :) Do I care if some idiot man decides I am not worthy to be called a Lady if I do something that doesn't live up to his standard of what feminine social behavior should look like? Well, I might not care about his opinion, if that's the kind of man he is, but I do care that women still have to buck double standards.

Edited to add: As Zen said on a different thread, this is one of those discussions I would enjoy more without male participation. I care about hearing what the women of TE would like to be called. I'm tired of hearing about what men think women ought to be called.

I grew up in the 60's where suddenly women were not to be referred to as girls, and the word; ladies was rather stilted, so i would become rather unhappy if i was called the wrong thing.

fast forward; now I've gone to Italy where all the older women are calling each other "girls" (ragazze) and men actually call themselves boys (ragazzi) and i am thinking, why am i getting so uptight about this?

so i'm not anymore. I don't like being called "one of the guys" either, but girl, lady, woman. it's all cool. I'm obviously no girl, but if my (at that time) 80 year old aunt can be a girl, so can I.

and i can go ballistic when at a nice restaurant the wait person says to me referring to my lovely meal "Are you still WORKING on this?"

Oh my, I didn't mean to imply that I was offended by someone here saying "Go, girl!" :p

Among friends (you're all friends :D ) it's fine, but precisely because it does imply familiarity I don't appreciate it in a work setting with someone I'm NOT "familiar" with.

But I think actually "girl" is used more in Norway (in Norwegian of course...) than in the States. Sports journalists are known for calling female athletes "girls", "the girls team" when they would never call the male ones "boys".

And I completely agree with whoever said that it shouldn't have to be a compliment that one looks younger than one is. I mean, you should be gracious and accept a compliment as it's meant anyway, but I'd prefer to just be able to be a girl, a young woman, a woman and then an old woman without any negative associations connected to the terms.

PS. So to the old-school gentlemen who instead of asking my age say "well, one should never ask a lady her age..." I just go "It's ok, I'm no lady, and I'm 38."

;)
I thought we crashed the board, Starfish

I despise being called "lady" because it's my feeling that it is a class distinction and a role as opposed to merely being my gender. I tend to dislike classification anyway unless someone has to refer to someone as one gender or another. There's no good way to do it and I've been guilty of the "guys" also.

As far as "go girl" or chick or anything, it's all in intent. If one of you said that, I would have no problem. If it was meant in a bad way (ie said probably from a male and I got the impression that it meant I was less of a person), I'd be irked.

So if someone such as a waiter approaches a table with women or men or mixed genders, how would one address the group?

I've been known to say things like "you two" if it's a group of two people. That sounds bad also though.

I'm strange though, I rarely refer to DH as my husband. He has a name, I prefer to use that because he's his own person and I don't like putting him into a category of husband. I have to do it a lot though or I'd say his name and people would say "who's that" so I'm working around that one.

What gets me are people who ask questions that don't directly ask the question. I do aircraft weight and balance. I have agents call me to ask if the plane has "weight and balance". What they mean is "are there any restrictions?" or "how many standbys can I clear?". I really try to contain myself from going off on them and saying EVERY flight has weight and EVERY flight has balance. Get to the point and ask what it is you need to know. Grrrr. I'm cranky that way.

I (obviously) take no offense at being called a "girl." LOL

When I started Velo Girls, I had no idea that the term "girl" was considered derogatory by many women a generation or two older than I am, until I read a blog entry written by one of our members about her first exposure to the club. I simply found an available URL and VeloGirls.com has a much better ring than VeloMiddleAgedWomen.com!

Seriously, to me, the term velogirls implies a sisterhood/community of healthy, strong, independent bicycle-riding women. Rather than a slight, we're laughing in the face of those who would oppress us (namely, male-oriented cycling clubs). And the "boys" know that if they want to participate in our activities/rides, they have to play by our rules.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now, more than anything, I hate being addressed as ma'am! My grandmother was a ma'am. My mother was a ma'am. I'm not old enough yet to be a ma'am, except when being addressed by a charming southern gentleman.

It is bit strange to think of female athlete as ladies. To me, it conjurs up an image of victorian dressed women with their white gloves and hat playing badmitton (sp) or other "lawn sport" of sort. Hardly the tank top, short-short with cleated shoes of any kind.

referring to one another as girls is okay with me AS LONG AS it is amongst women of my age or there abouts. If I refer to a younger adult women as a girl, I think that's condesending. and if I say that to women who are much older than me, I don't think I'm showing my proper respect to them. It's just me.

And I do know that to younger women, calling one another as "guys" seem perfectly normal. They don't even think about it. Then again language has a life and it changes with time. I can't imagine what life would be like if we all spoke Elizabethan English or English language from Sir William Spencer's or from Chaucer's period. Try reading "The Shepard's Calendar", "Fairy Queen" or" Canterbury Tale" or even "Midsummer Nights Dream" as it was written and you would go :confused: :confused:

When did we stop saying "I shall..." and became "I will ..." My English teacher beat that into me years and years ago "never say I will. Proper usage is 'I shall...' ".

And when did two or more people become two or more persons as if we don't know the term people?

Likewise when did actress become actors?

Then again I'm not a staunch language conservative like William Safire who is offemded more times than not.

yes ladies and men just sound all wrong.

smilingcat

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Originally Posted by velogirl

Seriously, to me, the term velogirls implies a sisterhood/community of healthy, strong, independent bicycle-riding women. Rather than a slight, we're laughing in the face of those who would oppress us (namely, male-oriented cycling clubs). And the "boys" know that if they want to participate in our activities/rides, they have to play by our rules.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now, more than anything, I hate being addressed as ma'am! My grandmother was a ma'am. My mother was a ma'am. I'm not old enough yet to be a ma'am, except when being addressed by a charming southern gentleman.

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Exactly. I became a ma'am I guess...don't remember the first time but :eek:

Anyway, it is like racial groups calling themselves things that nobody else would be allowed to call them? If that makes sense, it's putting it out there and WE can say things but we'd bristle if other people called us that. And nothing wrong with girls/boys. I often joke about (as I am clumsily trying to swim) talking about swimming in the lane with the big boys and big girls. It's just silliness. Then again, I'm not calling them boys and girls specifically...ok, my brain is now exploding.

And I do think the boys are starting to learn that we're pretty darned strong when we want to be :D

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Originally Posted by lyca

That's exactly what I was thinking. I wonder if part of the problem is that we don't have a female match for the word "guy". If I'm watching a male race (or any male sport) I feel comfortable saying "Hey, that guy is so fast!"

If I substitute "man" for "guy", it feels very formal. (though I'm sure I could get used to it)

Is there a more casual word for "woman"? The only think I can think of is "chick" and that has negative connotations. (Admittedly, though, I sometimes use it...:o )

Maybe we can make one up!

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I think gal is the counterpart to guy.

Yes, I try to use woman instead of lady. I use the word guy a lot, but I hardly ever say gal.

Karen

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Originally Posted by Tuckervill

I think gal is the counterpart to guy.

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What was that musical? Guys 'N Dolls? Maybe we should start calling each other Doll!! :D

JUST KIDDING!!! :p

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Originally Posted by Bad JuJu

I also think that many people, men and women both, avoid the term "woman" for whatever reason. They don't mind calling a man a man, but balk at calling a grown-up female a woman. That drives me crazy. I think this is where we get the widespread use of "lady," the continuing, maddening use of "girl," and even in some situations, "female." I noticed that last when I was in the navy--men were "men" but women were "females." I tried to put a stop to that, too, in my little sphere of influence. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr :mad:

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Woman is a loaded word, too, given the context and the tone of voice. My ex-husband used it as a warning when he was mad at me. (Guess why he's my ex?) So you know, it does have a connotation. I don't know if that's a Southern thing or not.

As I said, I try to use it. I don't mind if another woman calls me a "girl" but if a man says it, no matter his age, and especially if he's not much older than me, it really ticks me off.

Karen

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Exactly. I became a ma'am I guess...don't remember the first time but

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I've had long conversations with certain Californians of my acquaintance who insist that ma'am is a term of insult no matter who uses it and when.

In the South, we use it (and sir) freely regardless of who is on which end of the social transaction. It's still somewhat archaic--a quaint little throwback to another era of extreme politeness.

My CA friends insist that "miss" is an appropriate substitute! As in, "Excuse me, Miss? You dropped your handkerchief." But why is miss any less ageist or sexist than ma'am? I don't get it. I just keep using ma'am and usually it is preceded by a brisk "thank you.."

Karen

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Originally Posted by teigyr

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What gets me are people who ask questions that don't directly ask the question. I do aircraft weight and balance. I have agents call me to ask if the plane has "weight and balance". What they mean is "are there any restrictions?" or "how many standbys can I clear?". I really try to contain myself from going off on them and saying EVERY flight has weight and EVERY flight has balance. Get to the point and ask what it is you need to know. Grrrr. I'm cranky that way.

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yeah, we have this airplane, and it has no weight at all! we can sell it for big bucks!! but... is it balanced???? :D :D :D

Seriously...this happened a few times when I wore my hair very short (I'm also very tall).

Since then, I've lowered my standards :rolleyes: ...call me whatever you like as long as it has a female connotation.

Including "b1tch"...I wear that label with pride. :D

Wow, I knew you guys would have a ton of opinions on this!

OK, I called you all "guys", then almost changed it to "ladies" and then realized the irony of it all so I left it as is... :rolleyes: :D

I must admit that I refer to my friends as "the girls" quite often and they're in the 40-60 age range. I sometimes use the word "chick" but usually only when I'm PO'd at a woman as in "That chick just cut me off!" I call people of both sexes "guys" but that falls back to my youth. I do refer to a woman as a "lady" depending on her age and/or activity and I think there are plenty of occasions where the term is perfectly appropriate.

I guess my main point was that it sounded weird to me to refer to a female athlete as a lady and it sounds like most of you agree so I will tell DH and make my point. :)

My own pet peeves - I didn't like being called "ma'am" too much at first but I'm getting used to it, the older I get, and we don't hear it much around here anyway.

But I really hate being called "dear" by a woman younger than me. Where I live, we sometimes call an elderly lady "dear" and elderly people often call us "dear" but if a younger woman calls me "dear" I guess I figure it implies she thinks I'm old!

Thanks for your replies!

KG- hopefully you didn't hear me yelling at IMC
"You loook great ladies!!" as a group of women ran past...
I agree that I would never want to be called " dears" but how was I to cheer? Chicks? Women? hmmm- I have to say I did think they all look great- I tried to call them by name ( on some of their bibs) but as a group would go past I often called them ladies- I guess I feel they did looked great- not looking like guys.. a step up :) -not that being sweaty and trying hard, pushing it, is only something guys can do... they just looked great- I called them ladies outta respect I guess.
It never would have occurred to me to shout out- "women you look great"
I don't know why really.. typed out is seems natural enough- but I often shouted out ladies ( only as a group went past ...)
I have to say - there were some awesome bikes going past too- mostly I was worshiping them!!

I'm going to throw in my vote against "sweetheart" by men I don't know. :mad:

This happened to me just tonight. I was out on a short run and there was a pick-up truck pulling out of a driveway. There is a lot of construction happening on my street, so the truck had a bit of manuvering to do. The guy saw that I was coming and tried to move out of the way (which I appreciated), but I had to slow down a bit, anyway. He apparently felt badly about it and apologized to me....and then tacked on "sweetheart" to the end of it.

"Sorry, sweetheart!". Grrrr.

Pika - actually come to think of it, I might shout the same thing.Maybe I have a double standard and figure it's something I can do but DH cannot? ;)

But I ask you, would you have talked about them and referred to them as a lady? IE "That lady is really running fast"?

PS - Wish I'd known you, and Grog, were there on Sunday. I would have tried to hook up at some point and said hello. :)

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Originally Posted by kelownagirl

But I ask you, would you have talked about them and referred to them as a lady? IE "That lady is really running fast"?

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Never.
That sounds like something a child would say, not another adult.

The only instance I can think of where I would use "lady" is if I were waiting tables.
"Can I interest you ladies in dessert?" why, yes you can!

There is a woman at the front desk of my doctors office who calls me "hon" as in honey. Very unprofessional. And extremely annoying.